Profits, religion and politics

[mattjclark]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


I agree that I've never seen or touched the stone tablets, etc. However, I think that that is not unreasonable to come to conclusions based on, as I mentioned above, a 99.9% degree certainty. For example, the only galaxies that I've seen are from light that was from way before I was born, yet I believe that they still exist even though I've never actually seen a current picture of one. You could say I believe in them with a 99.9% degree certainty as well.

Again, I still think it gets down to a question of whether or not you think that God would deliberately obscure or reveal His design and intentions.

Before you get too sure of all the things that you think you believe now, lets do a quick history lesson.

A mere 38 years ago the Southern Baptist Convention denied Martin Luther King the right to preach in their churches. Something tells me they think differently about that today.

It was in 1978 that according to the Mormon Church "God changed his mind". The gracious God that the Mormon's love and worship decided to let blacks preach in his church.

Lastly it was in 1992 that the Catholic Church felt the need to apologize to Galileo for its condemnation of his wacky ideas about the earth revolving around the sun.

My point here is that facts and circumstances are in a constant state of change and what you believe today, you might not believe tomorrow (these fine upstanding churches sure changed their minds and I think they know a little more about religion than either you or I).

Anyway, I'm tired

 

[daniel_m]

Quote from mattjclark:


It may have not come across properly in the postings, but it true that there is only one fact which you can truly know (based on the definition of the word "know").

That lone fact is that you know that you know nothing (except of course that one fact).

Confused?

confused? it seems you are.

"the only thing you can know is that you know nothing, except for knowing that you can know nothing."

it's still a contradiction.

in any case, it's even it wasn't a contradiction, we can still know something else.

we know that existance exists. ie, we know there is SOMETHING rather than NOTHING in the universe. get it?

for us to know ANYTHING requires there to be SOMETHING to do the KNOWING. therefore SOMETHING exists, and we can KNOW this.

 

[daniel_m]

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:


Now that is an interesting question. The best way I can answer that is: when you look through a microscope or look at a sedimentary deposit, you don't doubt that those things exist. The just exist and they just "are". I believe that you should be able to take a religion's holy writings and look at them the same way: they just "are" and they should be true and reliable.

LOL.

not a chance.


why in the world should i accept the testimony coming from another man - which is what "a religion's holy writings" are - based on nothing more than his assertion that "god told me"???????

there is absolutely no rational justification for believing those writings should true and reliable because they "just are"!

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from daniel_m:


confused? it seems you are.

"the only thing you can know is that you know nothing, except for knowing that you can know nothing."

it's still a contradiction.

Great, its contradiction, the point is you don't know anything.

in any case, it's even it wasn't a contradiction, we can still know something else.
we know that existence exists.

How do you know that? Maybe you don't know the true definition of existence or to exist.

ie, we know there is SOMETHING rather than NOTHING in the universe. get it?

How do you know that? Maybe its all a dream. Haven't you ever seen the Matrix.

for us to know ANYTHING requires there to be SOMETHING to do the KNOWING. therefore SOMETHING exists, and we can KNOW this.

Your argument is flawed because it supposes that we have some tool to do the "knowing". Knowing is not possible for us, we have no such tool that "knows".


I'm pretty sure we could keep doing this until the cows come home, the point is neither the existence of the Bible nor some feeling in our "hearts" (if that's possible) nor my mythical 10 mile high statue with the emblazoned phrase "Christianity is the True Religion" can establish a "knowing" of God. Knowing is not possible for us, all we have are beliefs.

 

[daniel_m]

dude, read this very carefully:

for you to be able to make the claim: "we cannot know anything"

there has to be SOMETHING there to do the 'knowing'.

something. ANYTHING. even if this universe is like the matrix or any other crazy idea that is nothing like what we'd commonly refer to as reality, the point is there would be SOMETHING.

that is, whatever the nature of the universe, there IS a universe? get it?

THAT is what we can know. we may not have a clue as to the nature of whatever it is that exists, but it is an absolute undeniable fact that SOMETHING exists.

that something could be a 'thought' an 'idea' a 'belief' -- i'm not saying it has to be 'material'. the point is that there is SOMETHING that exists (--> as opposed to absolutely nothing.)

 

[stu]

I find myself disagreeing Max
I would say that you can "know".

If you think you can't know something, try hurling yourself off the top of a skyscraper with the same amount of conviction that allows you to say you can't know anything.

You will soon appreciate the "know"ledge that the gound exists and you will also know.... the nearer it gets the sooner you perish.

To know something is not the same as knowing truth. I agree with that. (I would as I have just said it )

 

[ElCubano]

Have you ever been hit in the balls by a baseball or basketball??? Tell me if the was real or not.....

Just trying to liven things up...peace...

edit....Stu kinda beat me to the punch...

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from daniel_m:


dude, read this very carefully:

for you to be able to make the claim: "we cannot know anything"

there has to be SOMETHING there to do the 'knowing'.

OK Dude, why does there have to be something to do the knowing? Isn't it possible that, that something doesn't exist (especially in light of the fact that you can't "know").

something. ANYTHING. even if this universe is like the matrix or any other crazy idea that is nothing like what we'd commonly refer to as reality, the point is there would be SOMETHING.

that is, whatever the nature of the universe, there IS a universe? get it?

THAT is what we can know. we may not have a clue as to the nature of whatever it is that exists, but it is an absolute undeniable fact that SOMETHING exists.

that something could be a 'thought' an 'idea' a 'belief' -- i'm not saying it has to be 'material'. the point is that there is SOMETHING that exists (--> as opposed to absolutely nothing.)

Yes, what you are proclaiming is Bacon's "I think therefore I am principle", which would be another example of knowing by deduction. That was kind of the point of the tag line "except knowing that you know nothing"

I have one last question for you. If your knowledge comes from "knowing by deduction", how do you know that "knowing by deduction" is really knowing.

I'm pretty sure that will crash most computers.


I'm done with this discussion (unless of course you can somehow spit out the Holy Grail in these ramblings). New topic.

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from stu:

I find myself disagreeing Max
I would say that you can "know".

If you think you can't know something, try hurling yourself off the top of a skyscraper with the same amount of conviction that allows you to say you can't know anything.

You will soon appreciate the "know"ledge that the gound exists and you will also know.... the nearer it gets the sooner you perish.

To know something is not the same as knowing truth. I agree with that. (I would as I have just said it )

Yea, but how do know that you were ever living in the first place?

To think you will die from diving off a skyscraper is a belief, not knowledge. I have conviction to my beliefs ergo I don't jump off skyscrapers (although I might if this stupid discussion keeps going).

My name is Matt

 

[mattjclark]

Quote from ElCubano:

Have you ever been hit in the balls by a baseball or basketball??? Tell me if the was real or not.....

Just trying to liven things up...peace...

edit....Stu kinda beat me to the punch...

once again belief, not knowing.


New Topic.