Professional Day Trading Short Sellers

The risks with these strategies are not immediately obvious to a casual observer. It's just like selling uncovered calls or puts. A very small number of trades go exponentially wrong and you lose multiples of your initial "investment". Anyone can take the trade data and do the math. You find that selling uncovered options, short strategies, etc. can be very slightly profitable for weeks or even months and then suddenly take your account to zero (or less). It happens to naive retail investors (and sometimes professional firms) all the time.

There's no free money out there.
 
Short selling is no kid's game. Famous example was Martin Shrekli taking over a company causing a huge spike, decimating an account. https://www.investopedia.com/articl...-short-sellers-account-went-negative-106k.asp
But it would be wrong to assume it's "very slightly profitable". The professional daytrading short seller are looking at BIG gains. FRD strategy is to wait for the bubble to burst and then reap large gains. I would suggest you check out some of Steven Dux YouTube analysis. Ignore the fluffy crap and really dig into his research.
A lot of those scary scenarios are unrealistic ie month long halts or shorting a stock then holding as it goes to the moon. The realistic scary scenarios are the $1 price spike that can occur on a $10 small cap when it's moving with volume. But on the flip side are all the things that favor the short sellers, like share dilution which is an immediate show stopper for any parabolic movers. The pros will use statistics to figure out when the best time is to short like FRD, first red day. The VAST majority of these small caps are going to fail. When they go parabolic, it's fairly likely they are dumping same day or a few days later. Stay away from the front side pump and play the back side fade. More short seller terminology.

FreeGoldRush said:
The risks with these strategies are not immediately obvious to a casual observer. It's just like selling uncovered calls or puts. A very small number of trades go exponentially wrong and you lose multiples of your initial "investment". Anyone can take the trade data and do the math. You find that selling uncovered options, short strategies, etc. can be very slightly profitable for weeks or even months and then suddenly take your account to zero (or less). It happens to naive retail investors (and sometimes professional firms) all the time.

There's no free money out there.
More...
 
lwlee said:
You are correct. I have quite the dislike for these overpriced subscription fees touted by some of these daytraders. .
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Most of them I find to be legit, not sure about Claytrader.

Whether their courses or chatroom is a ripoff that's another story. I do often hear Madaz touting he makes a ton more daytrading than his chatroom charge.

Personally, I wouldn't buy any of their courses or subscriptions since you can learn a lot just from watching their youtube videos.
 
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lwlee said:
Short selling is no kid's game. Famous example was Martin Shrekli taking over a company causing a huge spike, decimating an account. https://www.investopedia.com/articl...-short-sellers-account-went-negative-106k.asp
But it would be wrong to assume it's "very slightly profitable". The professional daytrading short seller are looking at BIG gains. FRD strategy is to wait for the bubble to burst and then reap large gains. I would suggest you check out some of Steven Dux YouTube analysis. Ignore the fluffy crap and really dig into his research.
A lot of those scary scenarios are unrealistic ie month long halts or shorting a stock then holding as it goes to the moon. The realistic scary scenarios are the $1 price spike that can occur on a $10 small cap when it's moving with volume. But on the flip side are all the things that favor the short sellers, like share dilution which is an immediate show stopper for any parabolic movers. The pros will use statistics to figure out when the best time is to short like FRD, first red day. The VAST majority of these small caps are going to fail. When they go parabolic, it's fairly likely they are dumping same day or a few days later. Stay away from the front side pump and play the back side fade. More short seller terminology.
More...

Yes and no. As an engineer who has done big data mining projects for over 20 years I have the background to crunch the numbers on this stuff correctly, which I have done. There is potential to make money on the short side just like there is on the long side. The pitfalls for the "look at the chart and shoot from the hip" trader crowd is they have no statistical tools for calculating the downside in real time. Once a year or so we see a stock that goes up 50X+ *intraday*. 3X+ moves intraday happen multiple times per week on most weeks and 10X+ intraday moves happen a few times a year. And I don't mean OTC stuff or sub $1 stocks. So you have to create a probability model to understand liquidity and the expected cost of covering a position like this when you are short. An estimate of market depth must be maintained at all times so you can calculate your cost to cover if you are in low cap stocks when liquidity dries up.

There's just no way that any of the retail traders I see on these forums are doing that stuff. It's not quite rocket science but it does require an engineer, a market data feed and a good mathematical background. You can skip these steps and "feel the market" or whatever non-engineers do but if you take a short cut I can prove to you with some math that you will eventually go home crying.

And doing all that doesn't make you any money. It just gives you the beginnings of a platform where you can trade this stuff on the short side. You still need a strategy.
 
Once a year?? "Feel the market"?? You have a very low opinion of the guys who actually take this stuff seriously. I've given you a bit of the insight to what they are doing. 50X??? I'm talking volume. Or didn't you get that? In general, the price increase is generally in the 2x, 3x, 4x multiple. Mind you, this is in a single day. More than enough to make a HEFTY return on the downside. Recently, symbols like NUZE, LVGN, PTPI, KTTA, PPSI happn quite often. The supernova like DWAC, BKKT, SPI do come along once in a while but just a bigger return on the downside.

Dude, all you need is a spreadsheet. You are making things too complicated.

Besides so called gurus selling peddling their get rich course, I very much dislike people who spout out their superior data mining supercomputer jargon with neural net analysis as if that's the only way to calculate and backtest historical stock prices. "An estimate of market depth must be maintained at all time" LMFAO. "no statistical tools for calculating the downside in real time". Damnnn that's some fancy rocket science shit there.

FreeGoldRush said:
Yes and no. As an engineer who has done big data mining projects for over 20 years I have the background to crunch the numbers on this stuff correctly, which I have done. There is potential to make money on the short side just like there is on the long side. The pitfalls for the "look at the chart and shoot from the hip" trader crowd is they have no statistical tools for calculating the downside in real time. Once a year or so we see a stock that goes up 50X+ *intraday*. 3X+ moves intraday happen multiple times per week on most weeks and 10X+ intraday moves happen a few times a year. And I don't mean OTC stuff or sub $1 stocks. So you have to create a probability model to understand liquidity and the expected cost of covering a position like this when you are short. An estimate of market depth must be maintained at all times so you can calculate your cost to cover if you are in low cap stocks when liquidity dries up.

There's just no way that any of the retail traders I see on these forums are doing that stuff. It's not quite rocket science but it does require an engineer, a market data feed and a good mathematical background. You can skip these steps and "feel the market" or whatever non-engineers do but if you take a short cut I can prove to you with some math that you will eventually go home crying.

And doing all that doesn't make you any money. It just gives you the beginnings of a platform where you can trade this stuff on the short side. You still need a strategy.
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What does LS mean?
What does JNS mean?
What does SJNS mean?

If you are trying to be facetious, it just shows the person you are. There is big community that does this type of trading. I've already mentioned the YouTube people. If you wanna make fun of them, you might as well as make fun of the WSB and Bitcoin people. But in the end, it kind of shows your mindset. Rigid and not willing to see how things are evolving. The main thing to understand is that the concepts has been utilized frequently enough that people now have acronyms to express the trading concept quickly. That's when you know it's growing. I know several Warren Buffet type of investors who debunk the whole concept of technical analysis. Ascending triangles. Double tops. Consolidating base. They also think it's all b*llshit jargon.

I'm not making up these terms. They not "personalized" by one person or guru as you say. It's a community of people trading this way.

maxinger said:
I have my own terms like
D DAY
ODM market
IWSUO
LS
JNS
SJNS
....

Terms have to be personalised
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The problem with all these fake gurus is that not a single one of them shows an actual audited statement. So they can claim anything they want
If you are very convinced that you can replicate their strategy just try trading it live with small sizes and you will see for yourself what the flaws are, if any. Or you can become even richer than them since these guys don't put in all their effort into trading full time and instead concentrate more on marketing.
 
lwlee said:
What does LS mean?
What does JNS mean?
What does SJNS mean?

If you are trying to be facetious, it just shows the person you are. There is big community that does this type of trading. I've already mentioned the YouTube people. If you wanna make fun of them, you might as well as make fun of the WSB and Bitcoin people. But in the end, it kind of shows your mindset. Rigid and not willing to see how things are evolving. The main thing to understand is that the concepts has been utilized frequently enough that people now have acronyms to express the trading concept quickly. That's when you know it's growing. I know several Warren Buffet type of investors who debunk the whole concept of technical analysis. Ascending triangles. Double tops. Consolidating base. They also think it's all b*llshit jargon.

I'm not making up these terms. They not "personalized" by one person or guru as you say. It's a community of people trading this way.
More...


You didn't read all my earlier postings.
hence you got offended as you only read selectively.

as in other businesses, day trading is a serious business.
Look at your posting #1.
Those day traders are serious traders and I commend what they are doing/using.


I day trade various futures and I treat my business seriously.
And I use those (or rather my) short forms every day.
I use the term D day very often in my ET Journal.
For the rest of the terms, it wouldn't make sense to the audience.
So I use it in my personal Journal and not ET Journal.
 
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I didn't read selectively. I don't think you got my point. The reason why I posted the original post was to highlight a community of serious traders that up till this year I had no idea existed. I used to dismiss the small cap and penny stock people as Sykes scammers and movies like Boiler Room. Charlatans just looking to rip people off. But from this chaos came a group of millenials, GenZ who figured out by using statistics, the rewards far outstripped S&P 8% historical return. At the same time, the risk could be minimal. FRD + overhead resistance is like 90% winners. And from that type of success comes a rich vernacular to express those ideas. TBH and I don't mean to knock your personal terms but no really cares until it hits the mainstream.

maxinger said:
You didn't read all my earlier postings.
hence you got offended as you only read selectively.

as in other businesses, day trading is a serious business.
Look at your posting #1.
Those day traders are serious traders and I commend what they are doing/using.


I day trade various futures and I treat my business seriously.
And I use those (or rather my) short forms every day.
I use the term D day very often in my ET Journal.
For the rest of the terms, it wouldn't make sense to the audience.
So I use it in my personal Journal and not ET Journal.
More...
 
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