Pro-liberty viewpoints on the US states, and other countries

[Ghost of Cutten]

Ok, this is mostly a question for people who are either libertarians or small-government conservatives, classical liberals (not the modern US meaning), pro-freedom types. In your experience, which states in the USA, and which countries internationally, are most favourable to liberty in a practical sense?

Main areas of concern are:

1. Basic human rights i.e. fair trials, free speech, political assembly, movement, freedom of conscience (political views, religion), consensual sexual behaviour etc.

2. Economic and commercial freedoms e.g. reasonable burden of taxation, moderate levels of red tape, not too hard to start up and run a business, employment laws that are not too burdensome etc.

3. Firearms laws, especially in the area of self-defense/public carry, and hunting.

So, places like Dubai would be out, because there are no political freedoms and gun ownership is pretty much banned.

 

[Lucrum]

A worthy list of desirable features.


Have you considered buying your own island? Not being as facetious as is might sound.

 

[377OHMS]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Ok, this is mostly a question for people who are either libertarians or small-government conservatives, classical liberals (not the modern US meaning), pro-freedom types. In your experience, which states in the USA, and which countries internationally, are most favourable to liberty in a practical sense?

Main areas of concern are:

1. Basic human rights i.e. fair trials, free speech, political assembly, movement, freedom of conscience (political views, religion), consensual sexual behaviour etc.

2. Economic and commercial freedoms e.g. reasonable burden of taxation, moderate levels of red tape, not too hard to start up and run a business, employment laws that are not too burdensome etc.

3. Firearms laws, especially in the area of self-defense/public carry, and hunting.

So, places like Dubai would be out, because there are no political freedoms and gun ownership is pretty much banned. A bit like Chicago & Washington

I've lived quite a few places in the US. I suppose places like Idaho, Utah and Wyoming are the best for just being left alone and having low taxes etc.

Florida is good for being left to do what you want and it always seemed very tolerant. I spent alot of time in Cocoa Beach and have friends on Merritt Island. The Central Atlantic coast of Florida is a nice area but gets hammered by weather about every 20 years like clockwork.

But overseas I can't help you. There just isn't any place where you have freedom like we have. Nowhere. I spent some time in Tokyo and saw quite a few gaijins making good money there but that place is just Disneyland for adults and not really my thing. Setting up a business there would be...difficult, perhaps not possible but one could certainly find a salaried job there. Japanese is easy to learn until you have to write it.

Europe is nice to visit. I can't picture living there. Stifling. My parents swear Tuscany is great and I'm going to visit there next spring.

I've lived on a south pacific island (ran a tracking station for the Japanese national space agency) and it just wasn't what I had hoped for. Disease, poverty, crime, drugs and a few other things they didn't mention on Gilligan's Island. I have friends who own a hotel on Palau and they insist its paradise.

I always end up back in the completely screwed up USA because I love it here. We may be under siege right now, liberty wise, but this is still the best place on earth to live imho.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFImtKE40tw

 

[Picaso]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

Ok, this is mostly a question for people who are either libertarians or small-government conservatives, classical liberals (not the modern US meaning), pro-freedom types. In your experience, which states in the USA, and which countries internationally, are most favourable to liberty in a practical sense?

Main areas of concern are:

1. Basic human rights i.e. fair trials, free speech, political assembly, movement, freedom of conscience (political views, religion), consensual sexual behaviour etc.

2. Economic and commercial freedoms e.g. reasonable burden of taxation, moderate levels of red tape, not too hard to start up and run a business, employment laws that are not too burdensome etc.

3. Firearms laws, especially in the area of self-defense/public carry, and hunting.

So, places like Dubai would be out, because there are no political freedoms and gun ownership is pretty much banned.

Number 3 basically eliminates every civilized country other than the US (hunting with a permit no problem in most countries, good luck with self-defense and public carry you can forget about it).

Number 1 and number 2, while in theory compatible, in practice tend to be inversely correlated (yes, there are countries with no freedom and at the same time burdensome levels of taxation/red tape, but no countries with a high degree of "personal" and "economic" freedom).

 

[phenomena]

Wow, you are highly misled.

For number 1 Canada is hard to fuck with. Greece is also notably accomplished. Much or Northern Europe and Scandinavia also do very well, Switzerland is decent....

Refer to "Privacy International" map for a roughly correlated reference

Green and yellow are good, orange and red are bad.

As for number two Hong Kong and Singapore get it hands down. In the west Switzerland and Monaco are a distant first, along with other microstates such as Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, etc.

As for number 3, Picaso couldn't be more wrong.

Switzerland enlists every able bodied adult male in the militia, ISSUES THEM A SEMI AUTO RIFFLE AND AMMO, makes them have bi annual or annual target practice and firearms training, and allows people to openly carry their firearms...

Here is a picture of a man in s Swiss supermarket

Further, Israel is quite free with firearms. It's quite common to see 16 year old males and females on the bus with M-16s. I'm not sure, but I have been told that it's fairly lax for civilian Israelis as well...

Note how safe Switzerland is, one of the safest places in europe. Israel is also one of the safest places on Earth if you don't count acts of terror and only count domestic incidents.

Quote from Picaso:

Number 3 basically eliminates every civilized country other than the US (hunting with a permit no problem in most countries, good luck with self-defense and public carry you can forget about it).

Number 1 and number 2, while in theory compatible, in practice tend to be inversely correlated (yes, there are countries with no freedom and at the same time burdensome levels of taxation/red tape, but no countries with a high degree of "personal" and "economic" freedom).

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from Lucrum:

A worthy list of desirable features.


Have you considered buying your own island? Not being as facetious as is might sound.

The problem is you are still subject to the laws of the sovereign state. Also I don't see any real difference over living on a non-island, apart from needing a boat or plane to go anywhere.

Overall this is more about wanting to be able to live my life legally with the most rights and least interference, and for this to be a robust and sustainable situation for the long-term. I don't want to have to rely on secrecy, evasion, breaking the law, corruption, luck, shifting political winds etc. For example in Eastern Europe, where I live at the moment, I can legally carry a gun concealed and in the home, I can actually own much more lethal weaponry than people in some places in the USA e.g. California, Washington, New York, Chicago etc. However, I bet my bottom Euro that the first time someone wastes a few people with a gun, the politicians and gun-haters here will agitate and pass laws, and they will get harsher each time. This is *exactly* what happened in the UK - and the UK is a country which 100 years ago allowed you to own private machine guns and artillery pieces. In 1996 handguns were legal. Then one nutter used guns to kill about 16 kids in a school, and by 1997 all handguns - including even .22 LR target pistols - were totally banned in all situations. Even training ranges for the UK olympic shooting team weren't allowed to keep them in a secure armory. Without a robust pro-liberty culture, laws defending liberty are very vulnerable to erosion any time there's a moral panic.

Liberty isn't just about laws or being able to "get away with" living free. It's about living in a society of like-minded people who are willing to take political action to defend those liberties. One person alone will always lose out to a group of people intent on violating his or her rights.

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from 377OHMS:

I've lived quite a few places in the US. I suppose places like Idaho, Utah and Wyoming are the best for just being left alone and having low taxes etc.

Florida is good for being left to do what you want and it always seemed very tolerant. I spent alot of time in Cocoa Beach and have friends on Merritt Island. The Central Atlantic coast of Florida is a nice area but gets hammered by weather about every 20 years like clockwork.

But overseas I can't help you. There just isn't any place where you have freedom like we have. Nowhere. I spent some time in Tokyo and saw quite a few gaijins making good money there but that place is just Disneyland for adults and not really my thing. Setting up a business there would be...difficult, perhaps not possible but one could certainly find a salaried job there. Japanese is easy to learn until you have to write it.

Europe is nice to visit. I can't picture living there. Stifling. My parents swear Tuscany is great and I'm going to visit there next spring.

I've lived on a south pacific island (ran a tracking station for the Japanese national space agency) and it just wasn't what I had hoped for. Disease, poverty, crime, drugs and a few other things they didn't mention on Gilligan's Island. I have friends who own a hotel on Palau and they insist its paradise.

I always end up back in the completely screwed up USA because I love it here. We may be under siege right now, liberty wise, but this is still the best place on earth to live imho.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFImtKE40tw

Ok, nice post. What are the downsides of Europe in your opinion? Can you elaborate on the "stifling" feeling you got there? Any specifics would help, although to be honest I am also pretty down on Europe too.

 

[Lucrum]

Quote from Ghost of Cutten:

The problem is you are still subject to the laws of the sovereign state. Also I don't see any real difference over living on a non-island, apart from needing a boat or plane to go anywhere.

Overall this is more about wanting to be able to live my life legally with the most rights and least interference, and for this to be a robust and sustainable situation for the long-term. I don't want to have to rely on secrecy, evasion, breaking the law, corruption, luck, shifting political winds etc. For example in Eastern Europe, where I live at the moment, I can legally carry a gun concealed and in the home, I can actually own much more lethal weaponry than people in some places in the USA e.g. California, Washington, New York, Chicago etc. However, I bet my bottom Euro that the first time someone wastes a few people with a gun, the politicians and gun-haters here will agitate and pass laws, and they will get harsher each time. This is *exactly* what happened in the UK - and the UK is a country which 100 years ago allowed you to own private machine guns and artillery pieces. In 1996 handguns were legal. Then one nutter used guns to kill about 16 kids in a school, and by 1997 all handguns - including even .22 LR target pistols - were totally banned in all situations. Even training ranges for the UK olympic shooting team weren't allowed to keep them in a secure armory. Without a robust pro-liberty culture, laws defending liberty are very vulnerable to erosion any time there's a moral panic.

Liberty isn't just about laws or being able to "get away with" living free. It's about living in a society of like-minded people who are willing to take political action to defend those liberties. One person alone will always lose out to a group of people intent on violating his or her rights.

I hear you and hope you find the location you're looking for. I probably wouldn't mind living there either.

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from Picaso:

Number 3 basically eliminates every civilized country other than the US (hunting with a permit no problem in most countries, good luck with self-defense and public carry you can forget about it).

No it doesn't, there are numerous countries where you can carry guns in public.

 

[Ghost of Cutten]

Quote from phenomena:

Wow, you are highly misled.

For number 1 Canada is hard to fuck with. Greece is also notably accomplished. Much or Northern Europe and Scandinavia also do very well, Switzerland is decent....

Refer to "Privacy International" map for a roughly correlated reference

Green and yellow are good, orange and red are bad.

As for number two Hong Kong and Singapore get it hands down. In the west Switzerland and Monaco are a distant first, along with other microstates such as Lichtenstein, Luxembourg, etc.

As for number 3, Picaso couldn't be more wrong.

Switzerland enlists every able bodied adult male in the militia, ISSUES THEM A SEMI AUTO RIFFLE AND AMMO, makes them have bi annual or annual target practice and firearms training, and allows people to openly carry their firearms...

The map doesn't really correlate unfortunately. Certain places on it are "beyond the pale" when it comes to gun rights and taxes. E.g. Scandinavia - reasonable for gun ownership, horrific for taxation. Hong Kong and Singapore - great for taxes and business, horrible for gun laws and not good for civil liberties (and Hong Kong is ruled by a communist dictatorship). Australia is clearly going the wrong way - a 1984-style national internet firewall, requiring "good reason" to own a gun, yet not recognising "trying to save my life from a violent criminal" as a good reason. I do find that hilarious - so plinking .22 LR rounds at tin cans is a "good reason" to own a gun, but saving an innocent person's life isn't? Australia is just like the UK and Ireland, too wimpy to accept that sometimes killing someone dead in front of you is necessary for a law abiding citizen.

At the moment I would say the USA and Switzerland look best, but I'm hoping to get some ideas for alternative places. For example, E Europe has pretty low taxes and many areas are pretty good for gun ownership. I am just a suspicious about how "robust" these rights and policies are. If I am in a self defence situation, I would rather not find my liberty being gambled on a legal test case in front of 3 former communist judges. Whilst preferable to dying, I'd like to have some confidence that the legal system will back me up if I'm in a situation where deadly force is needed. Legal carry is one thing but actual right to shoot a criminal dead is another matter entirely (google "Tony Martin" for an example).

I'd be interested in any knowledge from people regarding Asia, S America, and Africa.