Premium Sellers vs. Option Buyers

I spent the better part of this past weekend coming up with "bullet proof" strategies, and then I read this. Back to the drawing board I go.

Quote from Maverick74:

OK, so here is my story. There is a thread here buried deep in the archives, but it's here, about a poster who had this unique strategy of selling DOTM puts in SPX options. Now, I know what you guys are thinking. Hey Maver, that ain't original, I've been doin that fur years. Not like this you have. This guy had the idea to sell shit so deep out of the money, there really wasn't even a market on these strikes. You see, he did very extensive research and back testing going back oh I don't know, years he says, that shows the market never made such a large move over the time to expiration he would be exposed to. As an example, say SPX was trading at 1600, he might sell the Oct 900 puts. But Maver you say, there ain't no market down there. How he gonna do it? Well, he would put offers out up and down the strikes at .05 offer waiting to get lifted. Then once filled, he would wait till expiration and deposit profits in the bank.

Well this guy walked into my prop firm. Now I debated this guy, on this very message board, in this very forum, just like I am now. I explained to this guy why he was wrong and told him he was going to blow out. I walked him through step by step EXACTLY how it was going to happen. It's in the archives!

But he insisted on doing this. I let him come into our firm with 50k. I told him day one, EXACTLY what we were going to do to his positions should his haircut get out of control. I walked him through it a dozen times. That's just how I roll. He understood. So the trading begins. He did exactly what he said he would do, he put out offers up and down the SPX chain for a .05 so so so so so far out of the money. It would take Elon Musk years to reach these strikes using his new hyperloop travel. That's how far away they were.

So sure enough, this guy starts getting filled on these orders and after a few months, the guy is banking some coin. He sells the puts, waits, collects the money and repeats month after month. Keep in mind during this whole process I reiterate just how badly we are going to lube him up and pluck his rear when the time comes. He understood.

Well one day, an event happens. You can call it, a rare event, an unexpected event, a fat tail, black swan, whatever you like. But it happened. History gave it the name of the flash crash. After some riots broke out in Greece on a down day in the market, something random happened. A fat finger error triggered some sell orders in an already weak tape coupled with some serious technology issues. The market went into free fall. Not even the hyper loop could move this fast. Well, what this guy was not anticipating, despite the fact I laid out in detail, on this very message board (it's in the archives) exactly what would happen IF there was such an event. Those nickel puts went 20.00 offered. Yes, as in 20 pts. And yes, the ones that were a million points out of the money. These options actually had real bids on them as well. Well, this guy with a 50k account was showing an unrealized loss of close to 10 million dollars. And no I'm not making that number up. I had the risk desk in my ear the whole time speaking some language I was not familiar with. Now, we all knew that the prices in the market were not indicative of any real value, but as the old saying goes, price is truth. We had to buy these puts back. This trader did not like that idea. It wasn't his choice though. I explained that to him before he sold his first contract. Now, we weren't about to lift the 20.00 offers. But we were bidding for him. Some at 5.00, 7.00, 10.00. It actually took several days to even get filled at these outrageous prices. I explained to him we had no choice, as no broker does because had we not bought them back as a firm, our clearing firm would have paid 20.00 and closed our shop.

You see, I tried to explain to him, that in the market, what you think does not matter, nor what your spreadsheet or your backtest told you. What matters are the rules you have to play by. When you are short options with any kind of leverage, there is not a broker in the world that will not hesitate to blow you out, even if there is next to zero chance that these options would ever get remotely close to your short strike. That's just how margin works. Believe it or not, we were actually able to work the orders so the guy only lost 100% of his account. That was an act of God. We sent the trader his U-5, and this guy probably never traded another option again ever.

Of course afterwards he was still angry why we would buy back his options at such inflated prices. And my response to that is, what inflated prices. We actually paid far less then what the market was offering. We got them cheap. Let me repeat this one more time, this guy laid out this entire strategy on ET. I responded on that thread in detail exactly what would happen if he did that strategy. This trader did it anyway. And what I said would happen DID happen and exactly in the fashion in which I described it.

Moral of the story...listen to those with more experience. And remember, whatever you think you know is not even close to what you probably should know. So account for that error in your future decision making process.
 
Quote from steoli:

Ratios are good...

http://tradingthecow.blogspot.pt/2013/09/anatomy-of-position-trade.html

What do u think?

Ratios are bad.

They amount to selling naked legs.

They represent a huge waste of margin and will tie up a huge fraction of your account for no real prospect of gain proportional to the margin you are tying up, even assuming that you choose to ignore the unlimited risk of a sudden market crash.

Far better to use that large wasted margin (or risk allocation) to instead diversify into some other trade. One way is to buy protection further out at very little cost, but a large reduction in required margin.
 
Quote from comintel:

Ratios are bad.

They amount to selling naked legs.

They represent a huge waste of margin and will tie up a huge fraction of your account for no real prospect of gain proportional to the margin you are tying up, even assuming that you choose to ignore the unlimited risk of a sudden market crash.

So it's the same as naked puts.

But you can Buy the Out of money strike to reduce Margin.

If you buy 1 PUT 163 and Sell 2 PUT 160 and Buy 1 PUT 140 you reduce margin exposure.

And if the stock falls to 158 at expiration, you get 100 shares at 157 average price, which leaves you still with a profit....

At 160 you are getting 300 USD for 1600 USD on margin...
 
Quote from steoli:

So it's the same as naked puts.

But you can Buy the Out of money strike to reduce Margin.

If you buy 1 PUT 163 and Sell 2 PUT 160 and Buy 1 PUT 140 you reduce margin exposure.

And if the stock falls to 158 at expiration, you get 100 shares at 157 average price, which leaves you still with a profit....

At 160 you are getting 300 USD for 1600 USD on margin...

Exactly right......
 
question:

Naked strangles are essentially unlimited risk in either direction with limited profit. That being said, any purchases on either leg is just to reduce risk with the position.

So, for verticals (debit and credit spreads), my understanding is that the purchasing of legs to off set the shorts (whether credit or debit) is done to either discount your long position or to reduce risk on your short position. Is this correct?

So, it would be more successful to sell credit spreads overtime that are 1.5 to 2 STD OTM on a probability standpoint, assuming the vol is high?

When closing positions, is it better to exercise the options or to just close the options?
For example,

Lets say ABC is trading at 10.30, and its expiration day.
you're
short x1 10. ABC put @0.1
short x1 11 ABC call @0.1
Long x1 10.5 ABC call @0.35
current debit: $0.25
B.E 10.65
At expiration day its trading at 10.30

Do you think it would be good to take the loss or take on more risk by owning the shares and turning the position into a covered call?

I'm still new, so I'm looking for your input and critiques. Just want to get better at trading.
 
I think you've got several strategies happening all at once. What I would do is find out exactly why you're trading what trade. For instance are you trading a vertical spread because you're making assumptions about directional price movement, statistical price movement, product skew ect. What that is in the beginning should be than in the end.
 
The reason for my trade is to collect credit while being bullish on the stock.

I guess a better strategy would've been to use a bull put credit spread. I'm not sure if its possible to do a credit bull call spread.

Because My account is small however, my goal is to just grow the account by collecting credit.

My position started out as just a naked call/naked strangle.
 
question:

For example,

Lets say ABC is trading at 10.30, and its expiration day.
you're
short x1 10. ABC put @0.1
short x1 11 ABC call @0.1
Long x1 10.5 ABC call @0.35
current debit: $0.25
B.E 10.65
At expiration day its trading at 10.30

Do you think it would be good to take the loss or take on more risk by owning the shares and turning the position into a covered call?
.

If I am reading your example correctly....you have only paid 15, not 25 (typo?)
Also if you want to collect premium - this is a poor example of doing it.
If you mean that AT expiry it closes at 10.30 then according to your example, you have no positions to worry about. The loss has already occurred. All the options are OTM.
Why would you exercise OTM calls?
If its at a price of 10.30 pre expiry, then you have to wait - you will either have 0, a long position at 10 or 10.50 or a profit above 11.
Or you could punt it. Personally - I would wait, or simply buy the 10 puts back for a cent if you could or were worried about a 3% fall in the day.
 
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