Poll: Who reads MSFE/Wild's C&P posts

Quote from OPTIONAL777:


Flaming is another term for attacking a person, and not their position.

By labeling anyone "idiot" "loony" "nutjob" "childish" etc. you are suggesting that their present behavior, or their opinions expressed are due to a static condition of being a lunatic, an idiot, a child, etc.

You have a habit of not addressing the issue, but labeling the person who brings forth the issue.


This is flaming someone, and is a tactic used by both the left and right, but most often by the right wingers when they lack the ability to make an argument strong enough to defeat the opinions of an political opponent concerning an issue at hand, so they resort to denouncing the person who espouses the idea.....thinking if they create the impression that a person is an idiot or a lunatic, then all their thinking that follows must be idiotic or lunacy.

In logical argumentation, it is called an ad hominem attack, and I am not the first person in this forum who has brought your techniques of employing ad hominem and flaming tactics to your attention.

I'll leave it to others who are familiar with my posts to determine whether it is my habit to address whatever issue is under discussion, or instead to rely on attacks and labels.

People who attempt to weave conspiracy theories around the Waco incident - or who insult American political leaders, the American political system, or American culture with scurrilous and base accusations - deserve to be offended.

You expressed your opinions in an ad hominem manner, not providing an argument for those opinions.

Get over it. Harold Pinter has been called much worse by many other people. If you'd like to start a Harold Pinter or Arundhati Roy or leading-political-bloviators thread, then we can go into their public statements on Iraq and other matters in detail.

You can focus on what I do, but is that done to say what you do is right, because I do it too? Is this just another means of justification or rationalization?

Is this your way of saying that you are not a principled man, but simply one who follows the behavior of others, and justifies it on the basis of what others do?

No, this is my way of saying that your attacks have no credibility. I look forward, though not very eagerly, to your next exercise in taking remarks of mine out of context and attempting to demonstrate with them that I do not argue on the basis of fact and logic.

Your statements suggest that you either know very little about right wing extremists, the majority of whom hold views very different from mine, or that you are demonstrating another aspect of your customary hypocrisy - flaming me while pretending to deplore the practice, using a loaded term to argue by way of insults and generalized guilt by association rather than with logic or evidence. I challenge you to point to an "extreme" point of view that I've offered, or to give an example of an "extremist" whose views you believe are similar to mine. Until you do so, then I'll assume that anyone who has points of view different from yours, and who argues them tenaciously, must qualify as an extremist in your political dictionary.

Typical tactic, focus on someone else's behavior to dodge the question.

What question would that be? I denied being an extremist. I denied relying on ad hominem or other cheap tactics in debate. I may get in a dig now and then - so what? - but I'm not ashamed of my own dig-vs.-analysis ratio.

Extreme is a relative term. In today's political climate, moderates are viewed as extremists from the far right perspective. My perspective on extreme is one who denies evidence, or the validity of evidence in order to maintain their opinion, which I believe I have seen you do when it comes to the issue of the war and justification of it in spite of questions of the reasons given by Bush and company for the urgent need to have a war.

Get ready for what you may choose to consider an ad hominem attack - if you can't stand someone telling you exactly what he thinks, then I suggest you go somewhere else. Got it? I now consider you duly warned: Your position is moronic. Okay, that was the topic sentence. If you've recovered, you can now take offense and, with a few points and clicks, drag the words out of context in order to attempt to demonstrate that I merely attack people using generalizations, rather than backing them up with analysis.

Okay, now here's the analysis - which, if you follow one of your favorite tactics, you may choose to ignore: In a political context, the label "extremist" applies to the Timothy McVeighs of the world, the Nazis and Identity radicals on the right, perhaps by the Spartacists and other cultlike revolutionaryies on the left. Sharing a position and a perspective that also happens to be shared by a very substantial number of Americans - the majority according to the most recent opinion polls - cannot justify the use of the term "extremist." It is shoddy language and reflects shoddy thinking. Or maybe, coming from a hypocrite such as yourself, it merely represents your usual self-serving dishonesty.

If attempting to support such a position - that whatever Bush Administration misstatements on the war do not seriously affect the core case for it, as made and accepted - makes one an extremist, then what do you want to call the McVeighs? I guess you don't want to call 'em nutjobs - as that might hurt their feelings (though McVeigh at least is immune). I await your suggestions, though I don't promise to follow them.

You are offended? Good. I imagine those who run the web-sites you term loony and nutjobs are offended at your comments as well.

I guess they can sue me for the emotional harm.

I'd really thought you'd gotten over the need to make every discussion a pissing contest, and were through with trying to make things personal between us.

I'd really though you'd gotten over the need to use inflammatory language and ad hominem attacks.

Hypocrites such as yourself, as well as individuals who make irresponsible charges against public figures or who push lies and distortions on behalf of paranoid conclusions about public policies, while directly or implicitly directing horrendous insults and harsh accusations against all those who disagree with them, deserve to be ridiculed. Ridicule serves a social good in such cases.

Behave with consistency, intellectual honesty, and basic civility, and you won't have to worry about me disturbing your tender sensibilities.
 
Quote from TM_Direct:

Can anybody here on Et imagine a NYC Cop directing traffic on broadway/wall street so invading forces can get through????LMAO....

wait & see
 
Quote from TM_Direct:



I'll post more excerpts from Rommel tomorrow that will blow your mind.....Can anybody here on Et imagine a NYC Cop directing traffic on broadway/wall street so invading forces can get through????LMAO....

So you enjoy quoting a Nazi General but do not read when MSFE quotes the Guardian? Some democratic thinking!

On your question : Yes, I can imagine a cop in NYC directing the traffic for invading troups and another one sending out speeding tickets to the drivers of the fleeing tanks!

Has anybody on ET any good example of US troups ever fighting without WMD?
 
Quote from msfe:



wait & see

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,758724,00.html




I never said don't read his posts at all...you said that...and the reason i read about menlike Rommell is to understand the minds of the evil....but in this link I provided it is interesting to me that so many of the French are Pro Palestinian and anti Semitic...what's even better is the fact that they supported the events of 9-11....man Europe is so jealous at being a 2nd fiddle has been inthis world.
 
Quote from roe:



So you enjoy quoting a Nazi General but do not read when MSFE quotes the Guardian? Some democratic thinking!

Actually, I don't believe Rommel was ever a member of the Nazi party. He also participated in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

A great general on the wrong side in a bad war.

Has anybody on ET any good example of US troups ever fighting without WMD?

WTF are you talking about? Maybe if you give an example of troops fighting WITH WMD, we'll know what definition of WMDs you're using. Do you consider machine guns to be WMDs? Defoliants? Incendiary bombs? I suppose you could count Hiroshima and Nagasaki, of course, though there were precious few troops involved in the actual operation.

There were some military guys who got in a fight recently at a bar not too far from where I live. No WMDs were discovered. Hans Blix wasn't around, so the conclusion wasn't verified, but I hope that example will do anyway.
 
Quote from KymarFye:

Actually, I don't believe Rommel was ever a member of the Nazi party. He also participated in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

rubbish


Rommel und der Widerstand

Die Rolle Rommels im Widerstand wird vielfach falsch und verzerrt dargestellt - bei kritischer Betrachtung der Quellenlage müssen auch hier einige Korrekturen angebracht werden. Rommel war allen Anschein nach vom Attentat auf Hitler nicht informiert, geschweige denn, daß er es gebilligt hätte. Keinesfalls war er sich bewußt, welche Rolle ihm bei diesem Putsch zugedacht war. Die Vorwürfe, die ihm in Zusammenhang mit dem 20.Juli 1944 gemacht wurden und die ihn zum Freitod trieben, beruhten auf zu einem großen Teil auf Falschaussagen verhafteter Verschwörer, die ihre eigene Haut retten wollten.

Tatsache ist, daß Rommel - nachdem er in Frankreich den Eindruck gewonnen hatte, daß Deutschland den Zweifrontenkrieg zwangsläufig verlieren mußte -, Hitler im Frühsommer 1944 vergeblich für einen Waffenstillstand mit den Alliierten gewinnen wollte. Gemeinsam mit GFM Kluge hatte er Hitler unter Vermeidung des Begriffes Kapitulation gebeten, die "Folgerungen aus der Lage unverzüglich zu ziehen". Das Scheitern dieses Versuchs vermochte jedoch Rommels Treue zu Hitler nicht zu untergraben, vielmehr beklagte er, daß Hitler ihm nicht vertraue. Als der Feldmarschall vom Attentat auf Hitler erfuhr, schrieb er an seine Frau: "...hat mich das Attentat auf den Führer besonders stark erschüttert. Man kann Gott danken, daß es so gut abgegangen ist."(23)

Mit dem Attentat wurde Rommel durch zwei Offiziere in Verbindung gebracht, ohne daß er es auch nur ahnte.
Einer war Generalleutnant Speidel, sein Stabschef. Rommel und Speidel stimmten darin überein, daß es Zeit für politische Konsequenzen zur Beendigung des Krieges sei. Was sie damit meinten, unterschied sich jedoch grundlegend:
- Speidel glaubte, daß die Westalliierten niemals einen Frieden mit Hitler schließen
würden. Unter den Konsequenzen verstand er daher Hitlers Beseitigung, ohne dies jemals in Rommels Gegenwart auszusprechen.
- Der politisch naive Rommel setzte dagegen weiterhin auf das "politische Geschick des Führer" und war davon überzeugt, daß dieser die notwendigen Schritte für einen Separatfrieden im Westen einleiten würde.

Der andere war Oberstleutnant von Hofacker aus der Verschwörerzentrale beim Oberbefehlshaber West, wo man sich Anfang Juli 1944 immer noch nicht sicher war, ob mit Rommel gerechnet werden konnte oder nicht. Hofacker sollte bei Rommel in dieser Richtung sondieren, man wurde sich darüber einig, daß eine politische Lösung rasch herbeigeführt werden müsse, um den militärischen Zusammenbruch zu verhindern. Daß dafür zuvor Hitler beseitigt werden sollte - der Tag des Attentats stand bereits fest - erwähnte auch Hofacker mit keinem Wort.
Weder Hofacker noch Speidel hatten also Rommel definitiv für den Widerstand gewonnen.
Nach seiner Festnahme bezichtigte Hofacker den General Speidel als engen Mitarbeiter Rommels der Mitwisserschaft am Attentat. Speidel behauptete dann, er habe zwar von Hofacker den Termin des Attentats erfahren, dieses aber pflichtgemäß an seinen Vorgesetzten Rommel weitergemeldet. Damit hatte Speidel die Verantwortung für die unterlassene Weitermeldung an Rommel abgeschoben. Ob Speidels Aussage glaubwürdig sei, darüber sollte der Ehrenhof des Heeres entscheiden, in diesem Gremium saßen mit den Generälen Guderian und Keitel langjährige Rivalen und Kritiker Rommels. Sie schenkten der Aussage Speidels Glauben, womit die Schuld auf Rommel fiel.(24) Rommel selbst ging nach seinen letzten Äußerungen davon aus, daß man ihm die Niederlage ihm Westen anlastete und er deshalb zur Rechenschaft gezogen werden sollte. Der Vorwurf einer Verbindung zum Widerstand scheint ihm nie ganz klar geworden zu sein. Der weitere Ablauf ist bekannt. Die Tragik, daß ein eigentlich vollkommen Unschuldiger zum Selbstmord gezwungen wurde, ist unverkennbar.

http://www.panzerlexikon.de/bio/rommel/rommel.htm#anders

 
Quote from msfe:

Quote from KymarFye:

Actually, I don't believe Rommel was ever a member of the Nazi party. He also participated in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

rubbish


Who cares about Rommel's affiliation now?> he's dead....I want to know how MSFE and ROE feel about the growing Nazi and Pro Palestinian movement in France...and if they applaud the attacks of 9-11 as the guardian mentioned:confused:



BTW...If that last part about Rommel is true Im going to be pissed that you wrecked the ending of the book for me:D
 
Quote from msfe:

Quote from KymarFye:

Actually, I don't believe Rommel was ever a member of the Nazi party. He also participated in the plot to assassinate Hitler.

rubbish

Well, as ever, the truth is somewhat more complicated than a simple yes or no. It is generally accepted that he met with the plotters and knew of their plans, and favored bringing Hitler down, but at least initially objected to an attempted assassination. In short, he clearly "participated," offered some backing to the plotters, and, perhaps as important, didn't betray them. Whether he later offered more active support is a matter of some dispute.

Here's one take. I have no doubt that you can find historians who will disagree with it.

http://www.joric.com/Conspiracy/Rommel-Plan.htm

What seems rather clear is that Rommel conspired against Hitler, and had some knowledge of plans to move against him.
 
Keep to the law, Blair tells Bush

Nicholas Watt, political correspondent
Thursday July 10, 2003


Tony Blair gave George Bush a strong warning yesterday that he must follow proper legal procedures in the military trial of two Britons held at Guantanamo Bay who face the prospect of a death sentence.

As 163 MPs signed a motion calling for the men to be repatriated, the prime minister made his unease clear when he demanded that the US should observe the "proper canons of law".

"I quite agree that any commission or tribunal that tries these men must be one conducted in accordance with proper canons of law so that a fair trial is both taking place and seen to take place," he said as he faced intense questions in the Commons.

The prime minister issued his rare rebuke to Mr Bush in response to the president's formal ruling last week that Moazzam Begg and Feroz Abbasi should face a military trial at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

Mr Abbasi, 23, from Croydon, south London, and Mr Begg, 35, from Sparkbrook, Birmingham, have been held for 18 months without charge or access to a lawyer.

MPs of all parties are horrified by the ruling because military officers will serve as prosecution, judge and jury.

Charles Kennedy, the Liberal Democrat leader, said the two men faced a trial by a "kangaroo court presided over by the Pentagon".

Mr Blair insisted that he was putting pressure on the US authorities to ensure that any charges against the two men should be proved "with proper rules of evidence".

"We... are making active representations to them," he said. His remarks were made after a number of demands that he should to step up the pressure on Washington.

David Winnick, the Labour MP for Walsall North, said: "Put your foot down, prime minister."
 
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