POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[wild]

hi fairplay,

here are a few facts about American generosity:

THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MARSHALL PLAN

The Marshall Plan was a very smart policy, it was an efficent way to stabilize Western Europe - and it was a very successful policy to promote peace and stability in Europe and outside of Europe.

In financial terms, the Marshall Plan was not as generous as people think.

The Plan, reduced somewhat by Congress, totaled $13.3 billion throughout the life of the program from 1948 to 1951. Great Britain got the biggest share with 25 percent of the total amount (about b$3.4)followed by France with 21 percent (b$2.8), Italy with 12 percent (b$1.5).

On the fourth place of this list is Germany with about 11 percent (b$1.4). This is quite in contrast to what many people think:

Germany did not get the biggest share of the Marshall Plan, but the Marshall Plan worked most successfully in Germany.

On the other hand, the smaller countries got per person a much bigger support: Norway got 136 Dollar per person over four years, followed by Austria (131), Greece (128), the Netherlands (111). The big countries got the lion share of the total budget but the support per person was much smaller for example for Great Britain it amounted to 53 Dollar per person over four years, France got 71, Italy 30 - and for Germany the total amount was 18 Dollar per person over two years.

It is hard to believe that such a small amount of support from the United States could create such an "economic miracle". Well, it did not - one has to see the Marshall Plan within the context of a recovering Western Europe and especially taking into consideration the efforts to restructure the economy that were implemented.

There is a discussion going on among experts how important the Marshall Plan was in creating economic success stories in West European countries. Some experts are arguing that the Marshall Plan was more important in political than economic terms.
...

The German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF) is an American institution that stimulates the exchange of ideas and promotes cooperation between the United States and Europe in the spirit of the postwar Marshall Plan. GMF was created in 1972 by a gift from Germany as a permanent memorial to Marshall Plan aid.

www.gmfus.org

best regards

wild

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from fairplay:

[BWell well well: it was you who started this numbers game. Americans I know always have this way of throwing these numbers when the discussion turns in a direction which is not favourable. Yes, the Indonesian government is corrupt, so? What else is new?[/b]

Glad you can at least admit that.

Is that a surprise? If it is not, then why do you still throw that money? Exactly, because you enjoy having corrupt governments in the "3rd world"!

Er, so your premise then is that the US doles out foreign aid solely to corrupt 3rd world governments without the slightest humanitarian intentions whatsoever? Okay, that's why when there are earthquakes, famines, and other natural disasters around the world we are among the first to respond - in the back of our mind we're always thinking "what can we get out of this money?" The problem with your thinking is that it nullifies the billions we have given away to countries who are our allies - if we can't get anything from them in the first place, why would we assist them? You have the "luxury" if you will in this context of living in a poor country, thus you can always play the suspicious aid recipient. It's not our fault so much of the world is corrupt, although I'm sure Wild will find a link out there somewhere implicating that the US is indeed the cause of world corruption. Fairplay, Mohammed himself could appear at your doorstep with aid for you and you would ask him "What do I have to do for you in return?"

Why don't you ask my friend Mr Wild about the "donations" under the Marshall Plan? Afraid of getting a snappy answer back?

No, what I am afraid of is getting a plethora of cut-and-pastes and links from outer space.

Tell me: why did the US help Germany become democratic? Because of altruism?

Yes, and also because it was in the best interests of the entire world that Germany never again be able to cause the death and destruction it did under fascism. You don't find anything wrong with that, do you?

Mr Wild: can you comment?

You need to ask?!? By the way, did you ever ask your master Wild about his country's paying its way through the Gulf War as you obviously were not taught that by him?

Unless of course all the doctors, relief workers, and teachers are really spies and they just act like they care about the Indonesians they help out on a grass-roots level.You hear me laughing?

So all those people are spies in Indonesia and are only thinking about the village they are in supporting the US actions against Iraq, huh? Yes I do hear you laughing - like a maniac.

How I wish "Indonesia" would receive some help to which no strings are attached, such as voting in the UN etc which perpetuate the situation here. Why do you think are all the big US oil corporations here? Queuing up outside Pertamina's office? Got any idea? Could that have to do with the "scope and influence"? Just asking, you know, I am just a dumb simpleton...

Okay, if you insist, you are a dumb simpleton, but could the answer possibly be because INDONESIA SELLS OIL?!?

Ungrateful? You should thank us for all the oil that comes from our countries and on which your airconditioner (sorry, I know it's winter now, I mean of course your central heating) is running. So the ingrate is you, not me and the millions out here!

You should be just as grateful that we buy your oil at all. It's a two-way street Fairplay.

 

[TM_Direct]

Nice try....The money was really to keep those maniac germans from having some beers, grabbing the tanks and heading to Paris again.....I would love to have that 13.3 billion right now, instead of wasting it on cowardly europeans...or better yet, How about this grand idea: Germany, france and the rest of Europe pay back the U.S? Europe is nothing but a bunch of mooching cowards who have no right to say or do anything until they pay back their war debts......and not only to the U.S, but to the people they tried to exterminate...what a bunch of moochers...Let's face it Europe is over....Asia will fly past Europe any day now....California has a bigger GDP than France and for all intents and purposes our Salvation Army could defeat most Europeans Armies....Pathetic Cowards. Give us our money back!
Then you can pass judgement. ...and could somebody in Europe Please shower? ...and tell the women to shave their legs and armpits

 

[Gordon Gekko]

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from TM_Direct:

...and tell the women to shave their legs and armpits

Be careful. This is a VERY sensitive issue with Fairplay!

 

[TM_Direct]

Im scared the European Males might actually come after me...but then again, that would mean they would have to take a stand and actually stand up for something and possibly risk catching a punch...Nah they won't do it.....only the british would, the germans, french....cowards.

 

[fairplay]

Quote from Gordon Gekko:

I think you got something wrong here, so allow me to repair the damage done by you:

 

[fairplay]

Quote from wild:

hi fairplay,

here are a few facts about American generosity:

In financial terms, the Marshall Plan was not as generous as people think.
Mr Wild: don't become as ungrateful as we Indonesians are!

The Plan, reduced somewhat by Congress, totaled $13.3 billion throughout the life of the program from 1948 to 1951. Great Britain got the biggest share with 25 percent of the total amount (about b$3.4)followed by France with 21 percent (b$2.8), Italy with 12 percent (b$1.5).

On the fourth place of this list is Germany with about 11 percent (b$1.4). This is quite in contrast to what many people think:

Germany did not get the biggest share of the Marshall Plan, but the Marshall Plan worked most successfully in Germany.

Why was that so? Had Germany not just lost the war?

On the other hand, the smaller countries got per person a much bigger support: Norway got 136 Dollar per person over four years, followed by Austria (131), Greece (128), the Netherlands (111). The big countries got the lion share of the total budget but the support per person was much smaller for example for Great Britain it amounted to 53 Dollar per person over four years, France got 71, Italy 30 - and for Germany the total amount was 18 Dollar per person over two years.

Which means in today's dollars, Germany got a multiple amount per person as compared with Indonesia (2 $). And that was the "thank you" from the USA for having started a world war? Is that the logic? So, by that logic, if Indonesia started a nice little world war, we could expect some decent handouts?

It is hard to believe that such a small amount of support from the United States could create such an "economic miracle". Well, it did not - one has to see the Marshall Plan within the context of a recovering Western Europe and especially taking into consideration the efforts to restructure the economy that were implemented.

There is a discussion going on among experts how important the Marshall Plan was in creating economic success stories in West European countries. Some experts are arguing that the Marshall Plan was more important in political than economic terms.
...

The German Marshall Fund of the United States (GMF) is an American institution that stimulates the exchange of ideas and promotes cooperation between the United States and Europe in the spirit of the postwar Marshall Plan. GMF was created in 1972 by a gift from Germany as a permanent memorial to Marshall Plan aid.

www.gmfus.org

best regards

wild

How interesting and at the same time revealing.

Perhaps I should let you in on some stories I heard about Germany: you know it is very far away from here, so not many people know about your country, and I am only beginning to admire it.
I have a friend here in Jakarta who works for a small local bank. We first met when we attended a course on islamic banking at the "International Islamic University" in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) a couple of years ago. He is from a Western African country called Cameroun, from a northern city by the name of Maroua. He and his wife were there in Kuala Lumpur ( my wife and I also attended), and among other things he told us about the German colonial times in his country.

Apparently the first Germans arrived there in the 1880s and over the next 20 years or so established the country as a colony. Unfortunately (this is his own word!!!) as a result of the 1st world war, Cameroun became partly a French and partly a British colony because Germany lost the war. His greatgrandfather was something like the postmaster of Douala, the country's largest city. And until this day every boy and girl in his family had to undergo at least some basic German language course or better even, study a year or so in Germany. He got his doctorate in economics from Heidelberg University.
The main view of my friend and his family is that the Germans in their days may have been racist bastards, but at least they were "tough but just". Whereas the British were not only racist bastards, they were "tough and injustice was the rule". And the French in their part of the country ruled by "ïnjustice, racism and robbery".

In Indonesia we also have some sort of racism. For instance there were reports after the Bali bombing, that the perpetrators thought they were killing Americans: they did not know the difference between them and Australians! They just all look the same... Or if you happen to have a Dutch ancestry and even carry a Dutch name, tough, you move down at least one rung and all the others can "potong jalan"(=jump the queue).

But what I see here on this thread from some of these people is almost unbearable.

Coming back to the Marshall Plan, and all those people who talk about money that the Germans and the French should pay back: if I was the US president in those days, I would have seen that clearly as an investment opportunity. Europe was destroyed and in the recovery process the US industry could take part. There was simply very little "humanitarian" effort in this, it was just like they "bought" Alaska from the Russians in the 19th century. What if Putin told Bush: that was not a fair price, now pay up? Or what if Mexico wanted California back?

I go to places like Vietnam and Cambodia quite regularly: the damage done to these countries by the US and their allieds is so enormous, they should bloody well pour in billions to help them stand up again. But no!!! That won't happen: only on their (the US') terms.
How sad!

 

[El Cohon]

I'm confused.

We go to War.

I drop bombs and blow up your road, bridges and buildings as part of War.

The war ends.

I am supposed to pay you money to rebuild everything I destroyed.

Who is going to reimburse us for the cost of the bullets, bombs, fuel etc not to mention the families of those lost during the war.

What ever happend to the good ole days when the winner would pillage the towns and rape the women. We have been way too "civilized" and on Sept 11th we paid the price.

Dont you find it interesting that the biggest international issues currently facing the US are North Korea and Iraq, two countries that we have been at War in during the last 50 years, kicked their asses, only to back off.

Enough already, lets finish the job

 

[fairplay]

Quote from hapaboy:

Glad you can at least admit that.
Er, so your premise then is that the US doles out foreign aid solely to corrupt 3rd world governments without the slightest humanitarian intentions whatsoever?

Well then, please tell us what the humanitarian intentions were to support Papa and Baby Doc! Perhaps the supply of Cuban cigars to the white house ran low and Haiti promised to produce the same quality? Ask Monica Lewinsky where Bill's cigar came from! And by which humanitarian principles was the US government guided when it supported the Taliban in Afghanistan? Perhaps because the Afghan women did not shave their legs and the Taliban promised to settle that?
Just asking, you know...

Okay, that's why when there are earthquakes, famines, and other natural disasters around the world we are among the first to respond - in the back of our mind we're always thinking "what can we get out of this money?" The problem with your thinking is that it nullifies the billions we have given away to countries who are our allies - if we can't get anything from them in the first place, why would we assist them?

Now for the last time, and I hope you slowly get around it and remember: you have not "given away" any billions! These are investments, even desaster relief. My Rotary Club in Jakarta does the same!

You have the "luxury" if you will in this context of living in a poor country, thus you can always play the suspicious aid recipient. It's not our fault so much of the world is corrupt, although I'm sure Wild will find a link out there somewhere implicating that the US is indeed the cause of world corruption. Fairplay, Mohammed himself could appear at your doorstep with aid for you and you would ask him "What do I have to do for you in return?"

I think it is one of the better traditions of America not "to use the lord's name in vain": the Prophet Mohammad is not someone that you or anybody is entitled to poke fun at. This sort of insensitive blabber is part of the reason, why Americans are so unpopular in many parts of the world!

No, what I am afraid of is getting a plethora of cut-and-pastes and links from outer space. Yes, and also because it was in the best interests of the entire world that Germany never again be able to cause the death and destruction it did under fascism. You don't find anything wrong with that, do you?
You need to ask?!? By the way, did you ever ask your master Wild about his country's paying its way through the Gulf War as you obviously were not taught that by him?

Mr Wild: why did Germany contribute those billions to "Desert Storm"? That way it did contribute to death and destruction again, although Mr Hapaboy says that should never happen again!

So all those people are spies in Indonesia and are only thinking about the village they are in supporting the US actions against Iraq, huh? Yes I do hear you laughing - like a maniac.
Okay, if you insist, you are a dumb simpleton, but could the answer possibly be because INDONESIA SELLS OIL?!?
You should be just as grateful that we buy your oil at all. It's a two-way street Fairplay.

We do not have much to sell to the world but our natural resources because we cannot establish quickly enough value adding industries. There have been attempts, futile attempts I have to admit, because we just don't have it! It is not an easy task to establish an industrialised nation. It also took Europe and the US hundreds of years, and this time they are ahead of the world. But that was not always so. Just try to think of this: the development of the world is not the same always all over the place. When in Europe (incl. Germany???) they were in their second bronze age, in China they already had a proper administration, emperors, laws and even newspapers.

Yes we sell oil, Indonesia is the only Asian OPEC-member, and your country and others buy it. Because if there is no buyer, there is not trade. If you need to be guided on the fundamentals of economics, may you should not be in this elite trader chat room!