POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[wild]

Harry S. Truman, Diary, July 25, 1945

"We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark.

Anyway we "think" we have found the way to cause a disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexico desert was startling - to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower 60 feet high, created a crater 6 feet deep and 1,200 feet in diameter, knocked over a steel tower 1/2 mile away and knocked men down 10,000 yards away. The explosion was visible for more than 200 miles and audible for 40 miles and more.

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.

He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful..."

 

[fairplay]

Quote from hapaboy:

Unbelieveable. We could give billions in aid and you would still divide it by your population! It is not the responsibility of the US to "carry" your entire population "through 2 years." Just unbelieveable. Let's see, what amount of money, how many TRILLIONS of dollars would it take for you to be just a bit appreciative of our assistance? A part of your anger too may stem from the fact that your government is so corrupt, a lot of that 500 million dollars probably went into the pockets of a select group of officials.

Well well well: it was you who started this numbers game. Americans I know always have this way of throwing these numbers when the discussion turns in a direction which is not favourable. Yes, the Indonesian government is corrupt, so? What else is new? Enjoy stating the obvious? Do your "donations" end that sad fact? No? If not: why not? Because most if not all that money disappears in pockets, not that of babak, who would have liked the 2 $ - anything helps! Is that a surprise? If it is not, then why do you still throw that money? Exactly, because you enjoy having corrupt governments in the "3rd world"! It is the same thing with all those funny faces which the US have always supported: Batista, Papa and Baby Doc, Idi Amin Dada, Pres. Marcos, Pres. Suharto, Saddam Hussein (yes: that fellow too!!!), the Taliban, you name it!

Why don't you ask my friend Mr Wild about the "donations" under the Marshall Plan? Afraid of getting a snappy answer back? Tell me: why did the US help Germany become democratic? Because of altruism? And why Germany, and not, say Vietnam? Or Cambodia? Or Myanmar?

Mr Wild: can you comment?

The business side of foreign aid of course is the hopeful support of a recipient in the political sector! However, you cannot deny that there is a humanitarian aspect as well. Unless of course all the doctors, relief workers, and teachers are really spies and they just act like they care about the Indonesians they help out on a grass-roots level.

You hear me laughing?

Besides, the amount of money Indonesia receives far exceeds its scope and influence on my country's decisions in the "global political theater." So, you would prefer that Indonesia not receive any aid at all, right?

How I wish "Indonesia" would receive some help to which no strings are attached, such as voting in the UN etc which perpetuate the situation here. Why do you think are all the big US oil corporations here? Queuing up outside Pertamina's office? Got any idea? Could that have to do with the "scope and influence"? Just asking, you know, I am just a dumb simpleton...

Again, you so easily lump all Americans together! Isn't Candle your friend? Madison? Tsk, tsk, how ungrateful you are, even to them. And you are right in a sense as my opinion of you changes with each ridiculous post of yours.

No, I do not lump all Americans together, because I know that among the millions out there I also have some friends, or people who would be my friends if ever I met them.
I do not mind it if you find my posts ridiculous, because as they say, "the feeling's mutual".

But I also do not need to be guided on how to deal with my friends. We may be primitive savages out here, but the last thing we enjoy is your patronising!

Ungrateful? You should thank us for all the oil that comes from our countries and on which your airconditioner (sorry, I know it's winter now, I mean of course your central heating) is running. So the ingrate is you, not me and the millions out here!

 

[max401]

Quote from wild:

Harry S. Truman, Diary, July 25, 1945

"We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley Era, after Noah and his fabulous Ark.

Anyway we "think" we have found the way to cause a disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexico desert was startling - to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower 60 feet high, created a crater 6 feet deep and 1,200 feet in diameter, knocked over a steel tower 1/2 mile away and knocked men down 10,000 yards away. The explosion was visible for more than 200 miles and audible for 40 miles and more.

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.

He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful..."

General Anami was the War Minister of Japan in 1945. Even though we had dropped atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Soviet Union's declarared war on Japan, this still failed to sway Anami. He demanded that Japan "must fight to the end no matter how great the odds against us!" (John Toland, "The Rising Sun", pg. 910)

The leading Democratic Senator,Richard B. Russell, wired Truman day after Hiroshima:

Winder GA Aug 7 1945 4:27PM The President

(Personal delivery) The White House

Permit me to respectfully suggest that we cease our efforts to cajole Japan into surrendering in accordance with the Potsdam declaration. Let us carry the war to them until they beg us to accept the unconditional surrender. The foul attack on Pearl Harbor brought us into war and I am unable to see any valid reason why we should be so much more considerate and lenient in dealing with Japan than with Germany. I earnestly insist Japan should be dealt with as harshly as Germany and that she should not be the beneficiary of a soft peace. The vast majority of the American people, including many sound thinkers who have intimate knowledge of the orient, do not agree with Mr. Grew in his attitude that there is any thing sacrosanct about Hirohito. He should go. We have no obligation to Shintoism. The comptemtuous answer of the Japs to the Potsdam ultimatum justifies a revision of that document and sterner peace terms.

If we do not have available a sufficient number of atomic bombs with which to finish the job immediately, let us carry on with TNT and fire bombs until we can produce them.

I also hope that you will issue orders forbidding the officers in command of our air forces from warning Jap cities that they will be attacked. These generals do not fly over Japan and this showmanship can only result in the unnecessary loss of many fine boys in our air force as well as our helpless prisoners in the hands of the Japanese, including the survivors of the march of death on Bataan who are certain to be brought into the cities that have been warned.

This was a total war as long as our enemies held all of the cards. Why should we change the rules now, after the blood, treasure and enterprise of the American people have given us the upper hand. Our people have not forgotten that the Japanese struck us the first blow in this war without the slightest warning. They believe that we should continue to strike the Japanese until they are brought groveling to their knees. We should cease our appeals to japan to sue for peace. The next plea for peace should come from an utterly destroyed Tokyo. Welcome back home. With assurances of esteem

Richard B. Russell, US Senator

 

[wild]

hi fairplay,

did you know that the USA needs a daily influx of $ 2 billion of foreign funds (i. e. from Europe & Japan) to keep its vastly overindebted "financial system" running at status quo level ?

best regards

wild

 

[traderfut2000]

Nothing to add Fairplay.

it's simply masterpiece

TF

Quote from fairplay:

Quote from hapaboy:

Unbelieveable. We could give billions in aid and you would still divide it by your population! It is not the responsibility of the US to "carry" your entire population "through 2 years." Just unbelieveable. Let's see, what amount of money, how many TRILLIONS of dollars would it take for you to be just a bit appreciative of our assistance? A part of your anger too may stem from the fact that your government is so corrupt, a lot of that 500 million dollars probably went into the pockets of a select group of officials.

Well well well: it was you who started this numbers game. Americans I know always have this way of throwing these numbers when the discussion turns in a direction which is not favourable. Yes, the Indonesian government is corrupt, so? What else is new? Enjoy stating the obvious? Do your "donations" end that sad fact? No? If not: why not? Because most if not all that money disappears in pockets, not that of babak, who would have liked the 2 $ - anything helps! Is that a surprise? If it is not, then why do you still throw that money? Exactly, because you enjoy having corrupt governments in the "3rd world"! It is the same thing with all those funny faces which the US have always supported: Batista, Papa and Baby Doc, Idi Amin Dada, Pres. Marcos, Pres. Suharto, Saddam Hussein (yes: that fellow too!!!), the Taliban, you name it!

Why don't you ask my friend Mr Wild about the "donations" under the Marshall Plan? Afraid of getting a snappy answer back? Tell me: why did the US help Germany become democratic? Because of altruism? And why Germany, and not, say Vietnam? Or Cambodia? Or Myanmar?

Mr Wild: can you comment?

The business side of foreign aid of course is the hopeful support of a recipient in the political sector! However, you cannot deny that there is a humanitarian aspect as well. Unless of course all the doctors, relief workers, and teachers are really spies and they just act like they care about the Indonesians they help out on a grass-roots level.

You hear me laughing?

Besides, the amount of money Indonesia receives far exceeds its scope and influence on my country's decisions in the "global political theater." So, you would prefer that Indonesia not receive any aid at all, right?

How I wish "Indonesia" would receive some help to which no strings are attached, such as voting in the UN etc which perpetuate the situation here. Why do you think are all the big US oil corporations here? Queuing up outside Pertamina's office? Got any idea? Could that have to do with the "scope and influence"? Just asking, you know, I am just a dumb simpleton...

Again, you so easily lump all Americans together! Isn't Candle your friend? Madison? Tsk, tsk, how ungrateful you are, even to them. And you are right in a sense as my opinion of you changes with each ridiculous post of yours.

No, I do not lump all Americans together, because I know that among the millions out there I also have some friends, or people who would be my friends if ever I met them.
I do not mind it if you find my posts ridiculous, because as they say, "the feeling's mutual".

But I also do not need to be guided on how to deal with my friends. We may be primitive savages out here, but the last thing we enjoy is your patronising!

Ungrateful? You should thank us for all the oil that comes from our countries and on which your airconditioner (sorry, I know it's winter now, I mean of course your central heating) is running. So the ingrate is you, not me and the millions out here!

 

[wild]

DWIGHT EISENHOWER

"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

In a Newsweek interview, Eisenhower again recalled the meeting with Stimson:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

- Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from wild:

hi fairplay,

did you know that the USA needs a daily influx of $ 2 billion of foreign funds (i. e. from Europe & Japan) to keep its vastly overindebted "financial system" running at status quo level ?

best regards

wild

Perhaps we should just cut all foreign aid to other countries around the world, and start collecting the debt from France and other counties who have yet to repay our loans.....with interest of course.

Send out Vinnie and the boys from the mob to break a few kneecaps to make sure we get our money.

That should just about take care of most of our "financial" problems.

 

[traderfut2000]

Quote from rs7:



of course, what you say is essentially correct, but skewed. The British were colonizing and Palestine was a colony that was, like most, trying to break away. But, the Jews were absolutely inhabitants of this region. Had been for literally thousands of years. I don't see why you think the Arabs had more claim to the land than the Jews. (or the Christians for that matter).

As you may know it, jews were a minority in Palestine. It is the second world war that provoked a massive immigration of victims of the second world war. What happened after is tragic, Instead of learning from their sufferings, they killed raped bombed houses ....

When was the Dome of the Rock constructed? When was the second (forget about the first) temple built? When was King David in charge? When did Mohammed show up?

It has nothing to do with mohammed ) I thought you were a bit more clever. Arabs and jews are the son of Abraham. So I guess, Palestine was not inhabited just by jews contrary to what is said by the jewish propaganda. Moreover, since the jewish religion is based on blood. You cannot be jewish if your mother is not jewish, it may explain that arabs were and are much more numerous than jews. Jerusalem by the way was also christian and till today, you have many christians in the arab world. Iraq, Syria, Lebanon...


There is no reason I can think of that both Arabs and Jews cannot live peacefully side by side in the "holy land". There has been an open offer of peace sitting on the table for years. Israel has certainly overstepped the bounds of civilized response on occasion. No doubt about it. Lots of bad guys on both sides. Bad Israelis, bad Arabs. Who killed Rabin? Lunatic Jews. Who killed Sadat? Lunatic arabs. But it is kind of difficult to live knowing you are a target every single day of your existence. This is true for the state of Israel as well as for each Israeli citizen.

As the Israeli singer Noah said to minimize what you call a menace, "there are less deaths caused by terrorism than by car accidents. Yet, the embargo and the bombs thrown by the Israelio army on palestinian schools, can be a cause for retaliation.


I keep insisting, and you keep denying that if the Palestinians had responsible leadership there would be peace. I will always believe that. I know it is true.

I know it is not true. Arafat has no power over the suicide bombers. Nobody has. When the oklahoma bomber, a white american, did his act, Clinton , could not have stopped him from doing so, since it is an independant act. On the contrary, the bombings of a palestinian school could have been avoided.
I am not saying Arafat is my friend, but I am saying that Sharon cannot justify his criminal attacks in jenine and other places with Arafat.

But your friend Arafat has clearly demonstrated that he has no interest in peace. Only in victory. And that is not achievable. Can Israel be destroyed? Yes, but not by the PA. And the arab countries that have the real ability to actually stand a chance fighting Israel have no motivation to do so. It would be counter productive to their status quo.

This is your view.

Israel has already conceded that they are willing to return to the "green line" (with reasonable exceptions to protect entrenched settlers in the West Bank and Gaza..and even those settlements could and would eventually be returned....can't have everything overnight). And they will return the Golan Heights. It was all set to happen over 2 years ago. But then Arafat decided that 95% was not enough.

95% of what. It's like a breaking record. You keep on repeating the same. It was 95% of 10% of what was attributed by the UN. Of course he will say no.


We have been through this so many times. It is getting absurd. But I keep asking one specific question, and I never get a response. So once again....What was the sole objective of the war the arab nations declared against Israel on the day of Israels independence in '48 (and the subsequent wars)?

I already answered this question, please read my answer!!!

And one other question...I have not asked this before, but here goes....A hypothetical question:

If, Egypt and it's allies had won just the 6 day war (having already lost in '48 and '56), and, hypothetically, they did NOT destroy Israel (as was their goal)..but had just captured let's say Tel Aviv and Haifa and managed to take total control of Jerusalem...(again, all hypothetical), what do you think the chances of the arabs ever even considering returning captured land would be?

Zero? Or less than zero? Yet Israel has already returned the Sinai, and said they would essentially pull back to the "green line". So how can Arafat justifiably ignore any compromise? There is only one reason, and that is peaceful coexistence is unacceptable to him. And to many arabs.

I already answzered this question several times.

Thankfully, this is not true of all arabs, and eventually there will be peace. So why not speed the process? What is gained by delay? Things are getting worse for both sides. Israel's economy is shot. Isreal's sense of internal security is shot. The PA has lost credibility with the world. The suicide bombers will forever be a sad footnote to history, and have accomplished nothing for their cause. And the Palestinians still have no homeland. And they could have. But because of their leadership, they have only anger and hatred and despair (not all, but too many).



Shalom,
TF

 

[rs7]

Quote from traderfut2000:

Peace,
rs7

Traderfut....it is hard to tell who said what the way you posted our "dialogue". You know and I know, but still, I always thought you had the time to accurately do your posts.

I would like to respond, but the format makes it virtually impossible. However, you said you answered my questions about the stated objective of the Arab nations that invaded Isreal in 1948. When did you answer? I must have missed it. What was the answer?

You also said you had already answered my "hypothetical" question. I can' t imagine how you did that, since I had not asked it before.

Also, I await a response from you on Max's new thread, "Will an New Palestine End Terror". Hope to hear from you there.

Peace,
Rs7

 

[traderfut2000]

sorry Rs7,

I am trading at the moment and I did not have much time this is why

Tazlk to you later


TF