POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[stu]

Quote from traderfut2000:

You are certainly the most pevert person I have ever seen.
So Wild never said he is a nazy and because he said I don't care you're accusing me a nazy he is a NAzy????

Something is wrong here or is your logic a bit distorted???

Concerning the USA, I am fed up to hear the same thing, we saved the world and all that bullshit!!!! You won the war (period) and it was your interest to do it. Not to save the jews. You did not give a fuck of human rights, democracy etc.. you had superior interets on your agenda which were world supremacy, and it had nothing to do with democracy and human rights???

Why do I say that?? Because your allies France and Great Britain were the biggest criminal on the planet. They colonised numerous countries and what was reproched to the Nazis was also done by them.. and the whole planet knows it. So you did not save the planet but you helped your friends (period).

Your foreign and even domestic policy shows it. Outside, all the main dictators were supported by you and democrats killed by you. Mossadech and Lumumba comes to my mind but there are many others.

On the domestic front, the black people were still under discriminatory rules and they had to wait the 60's in order to be considered "normal citizens"...

traderfut,

Did you think before you posted that?

1. Wild does not care if he is labeled as a Nazi.......I would and I presume most right thinking people would, especially right thinking German folks considering recent history,

2. I did not call him a Nazi, yet he himself at the very least tacitly approves of being labeled as such.

3. YOU called me a Nazi for no reason...... "you are certainly the Nazi." YOUR words to me You also accuse me of being "pervert" did you mean perverse or are you now calling any sexual preferences I may or may not have into the debate??

What is the difficulty you have with this. Your inability to see the simple connection here makes your further comment that my logic is distorted , extremely questionable to say the least.

Wild brought up the Germany stuff.... he is the fly poster on inaccurate mass text swamping and he doesn't debate.

Glad to see you acknowledge Optional777's points which are well put and very valid and pretty much answer the rest of the agressive rhetoric in your post to me.

 

[rs7]

Quote from traderfut2000:



My friend Rs7, British were not the inhabitants of palestine they were colons and the Jews were also not inhabitants of this region of the world and wanted to replace the new colons.

Today, is different of course, the jews that are in Israel grew up and were born in Israel.

Personaly, I hope the situation will improve in Israel and that Jews and Arabs will live together.

of course, what you say is essentially correct, but skewed. The British were colonizing and Palestine was a colony that was, like most, trying to break away. But, the Jews were absolutely inhabitants of this region. Had been for literally thousands of years. I don't see why you think the Arabs had more claim to the land than the Jews. (or the Christians for that matter).

When was the Dome of the Rock constructed? When was the second (forget about the first) temple built? When was King David in charge? When did Mohammed show up?

There is no reason I can think of that both Arabs and Jews cannot live peacefully side by side in the "holy land". There has been an open offer of peace sitting on the table for years. Israel has certainly overstepped the bounds of civilized response on occasion. No doubt about it. Lots of bad guys on both sides. Bad Israelis, bad Arabs. Who killed Rabin? Lunatic Jews. Who killed Sadat? Lunatic arabs. But it is kind of difficult to live knowing you are a target every single day of your existence. This is true for the state of Israel as well as for each Israeli citizen.

I keep insisting, and you keep denying that if the Palestinians had responsible leadership there would be peace. I will always believe that. I know it is true.

But your friend Arafat has clearly demonstrated that he has no interest in peace. Only in victory. And that is not achievable. Can Israel be destroyed? Yes, but not by the PA. And the arab countries that have the real ability to actually stand a chance fighting Israel have no motivation to do so. It would be counter productive to their status quo.

Israel has already conceded that they are willing to return to the "green line" (with reasonable exceptions to protect entrenched settlers in the West Bank and Gaza..and even those settlements could and would eventually be returned....can't have everything overnight). And they will return the Golan Heights. It was all set to happen over 2 years ago. But then Arafat decided that 95% was not enough.

We have been through this so many times. It is getting absurd. But I keep asking one specific question, and I never get a response. So once again....What was the sole objective of the war the arab nations declared against Israel on the day of Israels independence in '48 (and the subsequent wars)?

And one other question...I have not asked this before, but here goes....A hypothetical question:

If, Egypt and it's allies had won just the 6 day war (having already lost in '48 and '56), and, hypothetically, they did NOT destroy Israel (as was their goal)..but had just captured let's say Tel Aviv and Haifa and managed to take total control of Jerusalem...(again, all hypothetical), what do you think the chances of the arabs ever even considering returning captured land would be?

Zero? Or less than zero? Yet Israel has already returned the Sinai, and said they would essentially pull back to the "green line". So how can Arafat justifiably ignore any compromise? There is only one reason, and that is peaceful coexistence is unacceptable to him. And to many arabs.

Thankfully, this is not true of all arabs, and eventually there will be peace. So why not speed the process? What is gained by delay? Things are getting worse for both sides. Israel's economy is shot. Isreal's sense of internal security is shot. The PA has lost credibility with the world. The suicide bombers will forever be a sad footnote to history, and have accomplished nothing for their cause. And the Palestinians still have no homeland. And they could have. But because of their leadership, they have only anger and hatred and despair (not all, but too many).

And once again, why did the neighboring arab nations NOT accept the palestinian refugees as equals? Why were they kept in refugee camps? Obviously there was only one explanation. And that was to keep the flames of hatred burning.

Israel is the common enemy. So it is very easy for the Syrians to mistreat the palestinians. Same with the Jordanians, and Saudis. Because they can then blame everything on Isreal and keep the hatred alive.

Saddam will no doubt attack Israel if the US invades Iraq. Just like last time. Why? Because by attacking Israel (which had no part in Desert Storm, and has no active offensive interest in whatever happens next), Iraq thinks it will garner support by it's fellow Arab states.

Israel serves a great purpose for the Arab world. They are the universal scapegoat. Whatever goes wrong in the arab world is caused by the existence of Israel. This is not paranoia. This is official policy of the Arab oil states. This is how the money is kept to the very few, while the masses are shut out. Their anger guided towards Israel, when their true oppressors are the royal families and dictators of their home countries.

I agree that the US should NOT attack Iraq. There has to be a better solution. The Iraqi people are not our enemy. But Saddam has to go somehow. He has shown his willingness to kill even his own people (even his own family members!!!). Imagine what he would do if he had the ability to kill us (America)? Or to destroy Israel? Would he hesitate? Not for a second. And given time, he WILL acquire nuclear weapons. And he WILL use them. He has proven his willingness to deploy weapons of mass destruction. And for him, the bigger the better. So his ultimate goal HAS TO BE acquiring nukes. And using them.

Unfortunately while eventually there will be peace and freedom in the Middle East (or the end of the world) as Max and CSN&Y said, (the) cost of freedom will be "buried in the sand". How sad!

How many more deaths will it take? How many more families must suffer? How much waste of life should any country or any race or any nationality have to endure? How many children will be deprived of childhood? How many potential scholars will never learn to read because they either don't live long enough or are directed away from the pursuit of education and towards throwing rocks and playing with guns? And giving up on their economy so that they can buy dynamite instead of bread and instead of building industry, or even creating crops?

When Palestine was partitioned, the Jews and Arabs both got their little pieces of the desert. One group flourished. One did not. The Jews aren't smarter than the arabs. They certainly did not have "friendly neighbors" with great oil wealth to help them out. They did have organization. And strong leadership. And empathy for their plight after he holocaust. They made the most of what they had to work with. The palestinians did not. Why? IMO poor leadership. Plain and simple. And that hasn't changed.

Peace,
rs7

 

[Babak]

Quote from rs7:

Israel serves a great purpose for the Arab world. They are the universal scapegoat. Whatever goes wrong in the arab world is caused by the existence of Israel. This is not paranoia. This is official policy of the Arab oil states. This is how the money is kept to the very few, while the masses are shut out. Their anger guided towards Israel, when their true oppressors are the royal families and dictators of their home countries.

Hear! Hear!

 

[rs7]

Quote from stu:

YOUR words to me You also accuse me of being "pervert" did you mean perverse or are you now calling any sexual preferences I may or may not have into the debate??

Stu, you gotta give the guy credit. He does quite well with his English. Not perfect, but it is easy enough to figure out what he means to say. So when I see "colons" and I know he means colonists, that's good enough.

Besides, I like seeing grammatical and spelling errors. At least I know I am not reading a cut and paste

BTW, are you admitting to some sexual deviance here?
JK!

Peace,
rs7

 

[wild]

HULAGU KHAN 1217 - 1265

Mongol Ruler

The grandson of Genghis Khan

Hulagu Khan received the western provinces of the Mongol Empire.

Hulagu Khan conquered Persia, eliminated the Abbasid caliphate,

destroyed Baghdad ( a city of a million inhabitants)

and established the Mongol empire of the Il-Khans in Persia. After the conquest of Aleppo and Damascus the advance of the Mongols into Egypt was broken by the bravery of the Mamluks (mercenary slaves from the Black Sea region) in 1260.


what were Dubya´s grandfathers´ names again ?

In April 1999, Texas Governor George W. Bush proclaimed a week of remembrance for the Holocaust. He said, "I urge Texans to never forget the inhumanity of those who perpetrated the Holocaust, and reflect upon our own humanity and our responsibility to respect all peoples." Good advice. He should reflect upon his own family, if he is interested in reflecting on inhumanity.

G.W.'s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, were among the chief American fundraisers for Germany's Nazi Party. Through industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Bush-run Union Banking Company and W. A. Harriman & Company, the Bushes sold over $50 million in German bonds to American investors, starting in 1924. Thyssen in turn pumped money into the infant Nazi Party, which had proved its desire to rule and its willingness to use brute force in 1923's Munich Beer Hall Putsch.

George Walker, GW's great-grandfather, also set up the takeover of the Hamburg-America Line, a cover for I.G. Farben's Nazi espionage unit in the United States. In Germany, I.G. Farben was most famous for putting the gas in gas chambers; it was the producer of Zyklon B and other gasses used on victims of the Holocaust. The Bush family was not unaware of the nature of their investment partners. They hired Allen Dulles, the future head of the CIA, to hide the funds they were making from Nazi investments and the funds they were sending to Nazi Germany, rather than divest. It was only in 1942, when the government seized Union Banking Company assets under the Trading With The Enemy Act, that George Walker and Prescott Bush stopped pumping money into Hitler's regime.

regards

wild


it´s the economy, stupid ... isn´t it ?

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Kopy and vaste, kopy and vaste, kopy and vaste......ad nausium.

Quote from wild:

HULAGU KHAN 1217 - 1265

Mongol Ruler

The grandson of Genghis Khan

Hulagu Khan received the western provinces of the Mongol Empire.

Hulagu Khan conquered Persia, eliminated the Abbasid caliphate,

destroyed Baghdad ( a city of a million inhabitants)

and established the Mongol empire of the Il-Khans in Persia. After the conquest of Aleppo and Damascus the advance of the Mongols into Egypt was broken by the bravery of the Mamluks (mercenary slaves from the Black Sea region) in 1260.


what were Dubya´s grandfathers´ names again ?

In April 1999, Texas Governor George W. Bush proclaimed a week of remembrance for the Holocaust. He said, "I urge Texans to never forget the inhumanity of those who perpetrated the Holocaust, and reflect upon our own humanity and our responsibility to respect all peoples." Good advice. He should reflect upon his own family, if he is interested in reflecting on inhumanity.

G.W.'s grandfather and great-grandfather, Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, were among the chief American fundraisers for Germany's Nazi Party. Through industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the Bush-run Union Banking Company and W. A. Harriman & Company, the Bushes sold over $50 million in German bonds to American investors, starting in 1924. Thyssen in turn pumped money into the infant Nazi Party, which had proved its desire to rule and its willingness to use brute force in 1923's Munich Beer Hall Putsch.

George Walker, GW's great-grandfather, also set up the takeover of the Hamburg-America Line, a cover for I.G. Farben's Nazi espionage unit in the United States. In Germany, I.G. Farben was most famous for putting the gas in gas chambers; it was the producer of Zyklon B and other gasses used on victims of the Holocaust. The Bush family was not unaware of the nature of their investment partners. They hired Allen Dulles, the future head of the CIA, to hide the funds they were making from Nazi investments and the funds they were sending to Nazi Germany, rather than divest. It was only in 1942, when the government seized Union Banking Company assets under the Trading With The Enemy Act, that George Walker and Prescott Bush stopped pumping money into Hitler's regime.

regards

wild

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from traderfut2000:

I don't think a war on Iraq is what should be done by the USA and history has proved to us that War should be avoided at all costs.

A world without war is a lovely ideal, but unfortunately not the reality. If anything, history has proved that war is often inevitable in order to thwart dictatorship and tyranny. If not for the Allies Hitler and his successors would be ruling the planet right now.

Saddam was killed

Um, I don't think he's dead, at least last time I checked. I'm sure this is a typing mistake on your part (I hope).

and what was one of the most developped country in the middle east became a poor country and the USA never stopped bombarding this country. more than 1.5 million people died. Of course, you can say that this is Saddam's fault, like G Bush does, but is it true??? The Iraqi People has done nothing to deserve this and the USA should have avoided the killings of innocent civilians at all costs.

what do you mean the USA never stopped bombarding Iraq? We bomb when our planes are threatened in the no-fly zones. We're not bombing downtown Baghdad nowadays. Also, the USA has avoided as best it can the killings of innocent civilians! Finally, the fact that millions of Iraqis have suffered because of UN sanctions is SADDAM'S FAULT, not that of the US. He is allowed to ship oil in return for money that is supposed to be used to feed and care for his people, but instead he uses it to build new palaces and rearm his military.

 

[wild]

Quote from hapaboy:

... Also, the USA has avoided as best it can the killings of innocent civilians!


While the U.S.A is leading an enormous inhuman elimination process against
the Iraqi nation in the name of " protecting world peace from weapons of
mass destruction", lots of people forget that those weapons were never
used by any one except the U.S.A.

On 21st of August, the Government of the U.S.A committed the worst
crime against humanity which will remain a shame for the so-called
International conscience for generations and generations, and at that time
the justification was "we are protecting world peace.

In this page we represent the forgotten Images of the American stands for
peace, maybe the next generation will become more aware of what greed
and racial superiority lead to, and it is a message for all western nations;
asking them to think consciously before giving their votes to their
governments which hide the following Images from them.

http://www.ummah.net/unity/hiroshima/


regards

wild

 

[max401]

Quote from wild:

Quote from hapaboy:

... Also, the USA has avoided as best it can the killings of innocent civilians!


While the U.S.A is leading an enormous inhuman elimination process against
the Iraqi nation in the name of " protecting world peace from weapons of
mass destruction", lots of people forget that those weapons were never
used by any one except the U.S.A.

On 21st of August, the Government of the U.S.A committed the worst
crime against humanity which will remain a shame for the so-called
International conscience for generations and generations, and at that time
the justification was "we are protecting world peace.

In this page we represent the forgotten Images of the American stands for
peace, maybe the next generation will become more aware of what greed
and racial superiority lead to, and it is a message for all western nations;
asking them to think consciously before giving their votes to their
governments which hide the following Images from them.

http://www.ummah.net/unity/hiroshima/


regards

wild

What's amazing is that they had to drop a second one to get the Japanese to finally sober up. Whose fault is that? How many American lives did it save? Further, it wasn't the Japanese military government that caused the necessary capitulation, they refused to surrender; it was the Emperor that stepped in, or there would have been surely a third or fourth bomb.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Kut unt vaste, kut unt vaste, kut unt vaste....

Quote from wild:

Quote from hapaboy:

... Also, the USA has avoided as best it can the killings of innocent civilians!


While the U.S.A is leading an enormous inhuman elimination process against
the Iraqi nation in the name of " protecting world peace from weapons of
mass destruction", lots of people forget that those weapons were never
used by any one except the U.S.A.

On 21st of August, the Government of the U.S.A committed the worst
crime against humanity which will remain a shame for the so-called
International conscience for generations and generations, and at that time
the justification was "we are protecting world peace.

In this page we represent the forgotten Images of the American stands for
peace, maybe the next generation will become more aware of what greed
and racial superiority lead to, and it is a message for all western nations;
asking them to think consciously before giving their votes to their
governments which hide the following Images from them.

http://www.ummah.net/unity/hiroshima/


regards

wild