POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[hapaboy]

Quote from Madison:


U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup

Madison, as stated in my previous post, I do not deny that we have made questionable foreign policy changes. However, you must remember that at the time we chose the lesser of what we thought were the two evils by backing Iraq over Iran. Iran's Islamic Revolution and the taking of our hostates were traumatic incidents that led our government to back Saddam.

The fact that we backed Saddam does not in any way diminish the threat he and other rogue nations pose against us NOW. You can post all the articles you want about how the US created this monster. It doesn't alter the present situation.

 

[Josh_B]

hapaboy:

Yes we have been maybe the major contributor to this mesh:

On previous US IRAN IRAQ involvement this is a good historical summary with all references. If you were living in any of these countries, and survived, you may probably also have similar desires to see the downfall of US or at least send a message to the gov't and its foreign policy.

I'm not sure we are not repeating similar mistakes..

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?postid=169831#post169831


there are so many posts in these forums about history and what is happening now.


Josh

 

[Madison]

Quote from hapaboy:

The fact that we backed Saddam does not in any way diminish the threat he and other rogue nations pose against us NOW. You can post all the articles you want about how the US created this monster. It doesn't alter the present situation.

I understand your valid point about a present threat... one thing that seems unclear is: if saddam had these weapons since the 80's, why the urgency now?

as an aside--

A gives weapons to B
B uses them on C

now if A is saddam, then A is a terrorist. but if A is the USA, then what is A?

if what C thinks is important, why doesn't someone ask the Iranians about it?

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from Josh_B:

hapaboy:

Yes we have been maybe the major contributor to this mesh:

On previous US IRAN IRAQ involvement this is a good historical summary with all references. If you were living in any of these countries, and survived, you may probably also have similar desires to see the downfall of US or at least send a message to the gov't and its foreign policy.

I'm not sure we are not repeating similar mistakes..

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?postid=169831#post169831


there are so many posts in these forums about history and what is happening now.


Josh

Good grief, but I wish those of you who keep posting all these articles about how the US helped Iraq in their war against Iran and other Middle East issues would for once answer this question:

WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE THAT THE U.S.A. DO?!?

I could cut and paste tons of articles that contradict and argue against the articles you've posted, but what's the point? Please do more than just spew venom against past foreign policy decisions and tell us what, in your view, the US should do!!

I am honestly curious as to your views on the here and now. That is, if you have any proposals at all, or are content to merely sift through liberal/pacifist/appeasist websites and cut and paste all day...

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from Madison:

...why doesn't someone ask the Iranians about it?

Okay....Hey Iranians!! WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT IT?!?

Madison, WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE WE DO?!?

 

[goldenarm]

If the US is sincere about taking out al-Qaida, they should focus their efforts on those two-faced Saudis. They should round up the families of al-Qaida and detain them somewhere and threaten to deport them. This is the best weapon against al-Qaida you can think of. The US should take some lessons from the Israelis on how to play hardball.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/854271.asp?0cv=CA01

 

[Josh_B]

hapaboy:

you are correct in some points:

The policies haven't changed too much. If you have articles saying something esle and proving what you call liberal/pacifist/appeasist views wrong or right, please post them.

Have you actually spent any time to read any of the ones posted here?

All I see is personal attacks on the boards when an article indicates facts that maybe against someone's preconceived beliefs. almost like a trade going against the trader, and instead of the trader stopping out and maybe flipping the position he/she curses the market.

What to do?

Maybe we need another thread for that since this may already going way out of the original intent. But it seems that all are inter-related.

.start by studying the past so we avoid the same mistakes in the future.

.educate ourselves in what is happening, and look at facts not 6 o'clock news puffery.

. start with devoting resources and $$$ to alternative environment friendly energy sources. So we have less oil dependency. Instead we have been slashing budgets in some cases by 50% this last year alone

.do not base our policies on few special interest groups (read oil/energy companies etc)

.Stop meshing around with the countries of the world out there

.We must not be judge jury and executioner, but focus on being honest peace brokers

.Obey the damn UN resolutions ourselves too. We were the major contributors in creating them. We are one of the worst violators (I will not post links here, but feel free to look them up..read them and understand)

.If we want the worlds respect and friendship let's walk the talk

. Is Iraq a real threat? what is our priority? Is N Korea a worst problem? Saudi arabia maybe a state that sponsored/involved the 9/11 why not attack them?

.How about China or Russia

.Let the rest of the world develop, bring them up to speed without exploiting their weakness to just fill the pockets of few select groups

.why is it that ONLY few nations are allowed to have nukes? Cold war lessons proved that M.A.D. worked!

Maybe we need a thread to discuss all the bs each administration has shoved down the throats of our fellow citizens and the world for that matter. But also it's evident that when we get into all these geopolitical discussions just about everything is interrelated. Who is in charge, who's interests are served, who controls the money flow, who controls the guns, the media, the spin doctors, the politics, the war machine, the need to sell weapons, oil, how to bring the $$$ back that we spend for it, the divide and conquer, the basic human traits behind it, greed, power, fear, and the list can become extremely long...

As a country we really need to educate ourselves and understand what we do and how it effects the world and ultimately us here in the states.

Yes you are correct, that we have an issue at hand to be dealt with. Iraq is just an easy target.

Unless the only solution is attack Iraq and hold the war mood over our nation for so many months now, what else you thing we should do?

Maybe as Madison suggested, let the Iranians do something or the Saudis or even al-queda that are at odds with Saddam.

Anyway, these are good threads with great points from either side that get heated up here and there.


I just hope cool heads prevail.

Josh

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from Josh_B:

Josh, thanks for your input. Although I disagree with almost all of what you write, I appreciate hearing some proposals instead of en masse indictments of US foreign policy.

If you have articles saying something esle and proving what you call liberal/pacifist/appeasist views wrong or right, please post them.

Cutting and pasting articles which I believe are "right" to refute your and others' views about US foreign policy is a waste of time. We can debate all day about the intricacies of what the US did, and when, and why, and in the end we'll just disagree.

Have you actually spent any time to read any of the ones posted here?

Yes I have.

All I see is personal attacks on the boards when an article indicates facts that maybe against someone's preconceived beliefs. almost like a trade going against the trader, and instead of the trader stopping out and maybe flipping the position he/she curses the market.

Again, "facts" in an article can be debated over and over. I can always point out an article that says X, you counterattack with Y, and I counterattack with Z to refute Y, etc., etc. Not to mention the always-dependable "well, if W hadn't happened, X wouldn't have led to Y." Just a circle. Your trading analogy could be used by both our sides.

As far as your points, thanks again for posting them. But I do disagree with several, especially the remark where you say:

why is it that ONLY few nations are allowed to have nukes? Cold war lessons proved that M.A.D. worked!

I can't believe I have to say this, but do you honestly believe that nukes should be in the hands of unstable dictatorships just because the US and several other nations possess them?!? M.A.D. made the USSR hesitate because THEY WERE RATIONAL HUMAN BEINGS! The difference between the then-Soviet Union and Iraq and other rogue nations having nukes is that Iraq and Co. are fanatics. You cannot deal with fanatics, for whom the rationalization of M.A.D. is a concept that would bother them very little...and do you think that Bin Laden would hesitate for one second to use a nuke on us if he had one? !? Where is the M.A.D. with him? We could not retaliate against him because he has no nation to target! 'sigh' I can't believe I had to actually explain that...

Unless the only solution is attack Iraq and hold the war mood over our nation for so many months now, what else you thing we should do?

Does this "war mood" bother you? Well it should! News flash, my friend, we are at war, and will continue to be at war, for a very long time. I hope you realize that this isn't something that's just going to go away very quickly.

Maybe as Madison suggested, let the Iranians do something or the Saudis or even al-queda that are at odds with Saddam.

Heh-heh! That's a good one! All I can say to that is: ???????????

Again Josh, thanks for your post. It has been very educational to the extent that it reinforces my own beliefs. I'm sure my views do the same to you.

Good trading.

 

[hapaboy]

Quote from goldenarm:

If the US is sincere about taking out al-Qaida, they should focus their efforts on those two-faced Saudis. They should round up the families of al-Qaida and detain them somewhere and threaten to deport them. This is the best weapon against al-Qaida you can think of. The US should take some lessons from the Israelis on how to play hardball.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/854271.asp?0cv=CA01

Although I think it's a lot more complicated than that, goldenarm, I do believe that the Saudis definitely have to be accountable for their role in 9/11. Saudi citizens, Saudi-funded Madrasas, Wahabiism. I loved it when Giulliani told Prince What's-His-Name to take his $10 Million and shove it. They'll get theirs someday...

 

[Josh_B]

lol good exchange.

Russians were painted as the worst evil on this earth during the cold war. Rational Human Beings? maybe now we call them so. But go few years back and commies scumbags was a complement back then...

They also sold a good number of nukes in the black market as they have already admitted many most likely bought by osama bin laden. Are they rational?

We can call any nation out there any name we want and paint any frame around them and sell them to the people as friends or foes, depending what serves the special interest group's interests at the time. The problems are much deeper and what we see are just manifestations and symptoms of continuous mistakes in our foreign policy.

Taliban already control a good deal of the Pakistani Parliament.. should we invade Pakistan (they have nukes and programs with N Korea)

If you have any other suggestions of what to do besides war, please do post.

Anyway this can go on for a long time, and candletrader maybe stepping in and rightfully so asking for the thread to get back on line.

Thanks for the responses. Great discussions.


Josh