POLL: The repercussions of a US attack on Iraq

[dgabriel]

A final note, since the Palestinians have as a matter of policy the goal to eliminate Israel, that they consider the state of Israel to be illicit, it therefore follows that attacks on Israelis in any form is acceptable. The islamics justify of attacks on citizens of a state they identify as an enemy, as they are critical components of the state. No innocents exist, there are no non-combatants in this view, not even children, as all members of the state are responsible for the actions of the state and thus liable and worthy of reprisal.

That is why you will never get a balanced view (that both parties have behaved despicably and need to arrive at a comprehensive permanent settlement of hostilities) on the equation from someone like TF, because they subscribe to the idea that the Israel itself is a crime. The argument is not that the actions and policies of Israel as criminal per se, although they are depicted as such for the media, but that any Israeli actions are criminal because they emanate from an original crime-the establishment of the Israeli state. In this view, the very existence of the Israeli Jew demands armed action by the Palestinian "resistor", and thier Arab sponsers. A meek, compliant, docile, pacifist, accomodating Israeli state would not render the tenets of the opponents of Israel obsolete. It - the Israeli State- would simply cease to exist in a decade or two. So far reaching is this corrosive view that legions of Europeans are questioning the right of existence of Israel.

Candle, under this mindset, peace is logically unattainable. And granted, it is the most virulent and extreme, but has great currency.

With knowledge of the deep and historical antisemitism in Europe and elsewhere, the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim terror groups recognize that it is only the US that continues to thwart their goals. They saw the West witness the genocides in Africa and Bosnia and they know apathy and loathing kept the Western states at bay for so long.

 

[candletrader]

Quote from dgabriel:

A final note, since the Palestinians have as a matter of policy the goal to eliminate Israel, that they consider the state of Israel to be illicit, it therefore follows that attacks on Israelis in any form is acceptable. The islamics justify of attacks on citizens of a state they identify as an enemy, as they are critical components of the state. No innocents exist, there are no non-combatants in this view, not even children, as all members of the state are responsible for the actions of the state and thus liable and worthy of reprisal.

That is why you will never get a balanced view (that both parties have behaved despicably and need to arrive at a comprehensive permanent settlement of hostilities) on the equation from someone like TF, because they subscribe to the idea that the Israel itself is a crime. The argument is not that the actions and policies of Israel as criminal per se, although they are depicted as such for the media, but that any Israeli actions are criminal because they emanate from an original crime-the establishment of the Israeli state. In this view, the very existence of the Israeli Jew demands armed action by the Palestinian "resistor", and thier Arab sponsers. A meek, compliant, docile, pacifist, accomodating Israeli state would not render the tenets of the opponents of Israel obsolete. It - the Israeli State- would simply cease to exist in a decade or two. So far reaching is this corrosive view that legions of Europeans are questioning the right of existence of Israel.

Candle, under this mindset, peace is logically unattainable. And granted, it is the most virulent and extreme, but has great currency.

With knowledge of the deep and historical antisemitism in Europe and elsewhere, the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim terror groups recognize that it is only the US that continues to thwart their goals. They saw the West witness the genocides in Africa and Bosnia and they know apathy and loathing kept the Western states at bay for so long.

dgabriel,

It is important not to tarnish all Palestinians with the same brush. There are extremeist and moderate Palestinians, just like there are extremeist and moderate Israelis.

The trick is to wait for a situation where Likud is out of power, Labor is in power, and Arafat hands over his reign to a more progressive successor. It would also be helpful if the Democrats were in power in the USA, in order to better catalyze the peace process, which will ultimately lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state with security guarantees for Israel.

Candle

 

[rs7]

Quote from dgabriel:

A final note, since the Palestinians have as a matter of policy the goal to eliminate Israel, ........

because they subscribe to the idea that the Israel itself is a crime. ........

any Israeli actions are criminal because they emanate from an original crime-the establishment of the Israeli state. .

Quote from candletrader:



.It is important not to tarnish all Palestinians with the same brush. There are extremist and moderate Palestinians, just like there are extremist and moderate Israelis.

.........

Arafat hands over his reign to a more progressive successor. It would also be helpful if the Democrats were in power in the USA, in order to better catalyze the peace process, which will ultimately lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state with security guarantees for Israel.

..

True and True.

Not an easy condition to deal with. Hopefully an educated new generation will take hold on both sides and see there is no possible resolution other than real coexistence and peace. We still have leaders on both sides that harbor resentments that arose before the partition of Palestine in 1948. One thing that they have in the Middle East is long memories and even longer held grudges.

Peace,
rs7

 

[traderfut2000]

Quote from rs7:

Part 1: (Sorry this response is so long...I feel like Darkhorse....but I don't know how else to respond to TF without a "cut and paste job". These are my thoughts, and anyone is obviously free to disregard them all)



Yes, TF, I am fully aware that Arabs are "semites" and never did I call you an anti-semite. What I said was that "anti-semitism" was rampant now in Europe, and especially so in France.

I also said that I could, but would not, do a "cut and paste" job to support these allegations. You know full well that I don't believe in that. Yet, here, once again, you do it. This article by Robert Jensen has been posted so many times on ET, I would know it by heart if I had read it each time (I didn't, and I won't for the very reasons I explained more than once.....I am interested in what YOU have to say, not what you have to quote).

As a practical matter, let's agree that the term "anti-semite" although used loosely, and inaccurately (since you are correct, and arabs are semites), is, for practical purposes construed as meaning "anti-jewish". So let's forego the technical definition of "semite". At least in America, it means "anti-jewish". If you are more comfortable with that term, then I will use it. I am sure you knew what I meant anyway.

TF, let's just agree to disagree. You think Israel is a terrorist state. Have you been there? While I sympathize somewhat with the plight of the Palestinians, there are certainly two sides to all the issues. I am getting tired of repeating myself. I am getting tired of having to. But once again.....the Palestinians could have a homeland if their leadership (Arafat) would accept compromise. Again, 98% of what he wanted was offered. Why must he have 100%? My only logical conclusion is that he does not want peace.

The VAST MAJORITY of Israeli citizens DO NOT want to fight over the disputed territories. They want PEACE! And expected to have it over two years ago.

But peace was abandoned by Arafat, and now the situation stinks for all parties.

Israel has, indeed, inflicted casualties on innocent Palestinians. But not with intent. Suicide bombers have only one intent. And that is to kill innocent non-combatants. Do you disagree with this? Is bombing discos and pizza joints part of a strategy to tactically eliminate military threats? Or is it to cause fear and terror?

You call Israel a "nazi" regime. You say the Palestinians have a right to the land that is now Israel because they were there first. What about the Jews? How far back in time would you like to go? 50 years? 2000 years? 3000 years? Last month? What? What time frame is most convenient to your argument?

 

[traderfut2000]

If the Palestinians are entitled to a homeland, are not the Jews? If the Palestinians are entitled to fight for a homeland, were not the Jews? After World War II, a state was established as a Jewish homeland. Was this something that they were not entitled to? And did they take (or where they given) some kind of paradise? Or a tiny strip of desert that they irrigated and brought into the 20th century through hard work and struggle?

You said the Palestinians did not want to remain in Jordan...the territory the partition of Palestine gave these arab people the same rights to build as the jews got in what became Israel. But what did they accomplish in Jordan?

You gave an example of me being forced from my home of New York, and how I would rather return than make a new home. So this is the "right of return" issue. Indeed a complex issue. Are some "palestinians" getting a bad deal in this? Yes, they are. But things are what they are. A lot of time has passed. And furthermore, the arab neighbors told the Palestinians in Israel to leave, because Israel (the Jews) would be driven into the sea in 1948. So believing this, the Arab residents left, hoping to come back soon. But the Arabs LOST that unprovoked war, and so the Arabs of Egypt and Syria basically let down the "palestinians". They told them to leave their homes, and they did. Then they (the other Arab nations) lost the war, and the Palestinians were screwed. But not only did they lose their homes (by deserting them), they weren't even accepted into the nations that supposedly supported their cause (the "palestinian" cause).

So the "palestinians" left their homes in Israel, were not allowed to assimilate into society in their neighboring Arab countries....they were kept in refugee camps....and were treated as second class citizens (at best) by their supposed "brothers".

So yeah, these people have suffered on all fronts. And now, Israel is supposed to do exactly what? Return the land that was abandoned? The land that the jews worked so hard for so long to develop? Sounds like a sweet deal for the Palestinians. And what of the jews that put in all the work? Are they to go back to Russia and Germany and Poland and all the other places they fled with no belongings and no rights to even live?

You have a choice of going to a death camp in Poland or fleeing to Israel (British Palestine) with nothing but hope, what would you opt for?

You make it to British Palestine, you fight for independence, and win. Do you turn around 55 years later and say....."hey you guys that fled, yeah, I worked hard to make a life here, but since you once were here, I will just pack it in and leave, and you can have it back. Even though you have been trying to take it (unsuccessfully) by force for so many years".

Then what? Go back to Poland where they still to this day spit on Jews? Sounds like a really pleasant alternative to staying and fighting for what you spent so long to build into a "new" homeland.

And what is the real definition of "new"? TF, you and I have gone through this before. The Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago. Kicked out, came back, kicked out, came back. Why? because it is such a lush paradise? No, my friend, it is because it is the holy land. And as it is also a (not the) holy land in Islam, as well as in Christianity, everyone wants Jerusalem. And you know what? Jerusalem could (and will someday) be shared as a holy city. But in the meantime, those friendly folks who love to blow up civilian targets don't want to share. So the Western Wall has to be heavily guarded by IDF. Have Israelis ever tried to desecrate Islamic holy sites? When the Church of the Nativity was under siege in Bethlehem recently, who were the perpetrators? When the Taliban decided to destroy Buddhist (or was it Hindu) holy sites, did Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists retaliate by destroying Islamic holy sites and shrines? [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[traderfut2000]

The US sends every year billions of dollars to Israel. As jensen said, without the US aid there would be no Israel.

Concerning the genocide, juts stop it. If there is a genocide it is a palestinian genocide not a jewish. Or may be 4 palestinian killed for on israeli is not enough you want more ????

3 to 4 times more palestinian killed since the beginning of the conflict. More than that Universities are destroyed houses are destroyed, people cannot move like they want. Borders everywhere, like if they lived in a big prison. They do not have a state. So after that if you continue to say that they want to destroy Israel and this is why they are doing suicide bombing is just wrong.

It is simply a cycle of revenge and hatred. rs7, if we sent a missile on your house, killed your children and your wife you would for sure become a suicide bomber.

War is not rational. It is not about saying look they killed my son but I am a rational guy and I don't see why I will do the same... So enough is enough. I think this conflict is the biggest plea in today's history and a solution must be found and the Israeli have a big responsibility and have the means to make peace, Not the palestinian.

Quote from dgabriel:

A final note, since the Palestinians have as a matter of policy the goal to eliminate Israel, that they consider the state of Israel to be illicit, it therefore follows that attacks on Israelis in any form is acceptable. The islamics justify of attacks on citizens of a state they identify as an enemy, as they are critical components of the state. No innocents exist, there are no non-combatants in this view, not even children, as all members of the state are responsible for the actions of the state and thus liable and worthy of reprisal.

That is why you will never get a balanced view (that both parties have behaved despicably and need to arrive at a comprehensive permanent settlement of hostilities) on the equation from someone like TF, because they subscribe to the idea that the Israel itself is a crime. The argument is not that the actions and policies of Israel as criminal per se, although they are depicted as such for the media, but that any Israeli actions are criminal because they emanate from an original crime-the establishment of the Israeli state. In this view, the very existence of the Israeli Jew demands armed action by the Palestinian "resistor", and thier Arab sponsers. A meek, compliant, docile, pacifist, accomodating Israeli state would not render the tenets of the opponents of Israel obsolete. It - the Israeli State- would simply cease to exist in a decade or two. So far reaching is this corrosive view that legions of Europeans are questioning the right of existence of Israel.

Candle, under this mindset, peace is logically unattainable. And granted, it is the most virulent and extreme, but has great currency.

With knowledge of the deep and historical antisemitism in Europe and elsewhere, the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim terror groups recognize that it is only the US that continues to thwart their goals. They saw the West witness the genocides in Africa and Bosnia and they know apathy and loathing kept the Western states at bay for so long.

 

[traderfut2000]

David Ben-Gurion (the first Prime Minister of Israel) had written in his dairy after the United Nations vote to partition Palestine into two states:

"In my heart, there was joy mixed with sadness: joy that the nations at last acknowledged that we are a nation with a state, and SADNESS that we LOST half of the country, Judea and Samaria, and , in addition, that we [would] have [in our state] 400,000 Arabs."

As the UK leaves the region, Israel declares independence and ethnically cleanses large areas of its allocated territory forcing over 1,000,000 Palestinians into refugee camps in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. 500 Palestinian villages are depopulated and destroyed. The Israelis attack parts of the territory allocated to Palestine and clear West Jerusalem of its Arab residents.

After the dust settles, 68% of the indigenous people of Palestine have been expelled and Israel ends up with 78% of the territory after having been allocated less than 57%.

The United Nations mediator, Count Folke Bernadotte, is assassinated by Jewish terrorists. Yitzhak Shamir (a later Israeli minister) is implicated.

One of the most notorious incidents occurs in the small Arab village of Deir Yassin, near Jerusalem, on 9-10 April 1948. The massacre is carried out by the Irgun and is designed to spread terror and panic among the Arab population of Palestine to frighten the people into fleeing their homes. The vacated land could then be confiscated for the use of Jewish colonialist settlers.

254 people are killed. The dead include 25 pregnant women (many of which are bayoneted in their abdomens while still alive), 52 children (who are decapitated) and babies. Many bodies are mutilated, some before death.

150 women and girls who survive are stripped and placed in open cars. They are driven naked through the streets of the Jewish section of Jerusalem, where onlookers cheer. In the following days, Israeli forces use loudspeakers to warn Arabs to leave their villages or suffer the fate of Deir Yassin.

Menachem Begin (leader of Irgun and later Prime Minister of Israel) describes what happened:

"the Arabs fought tenaciously in defense of their homes, their women and their children."

and justifies the action:

"The massacre was not only justified, but there would not have been a state without the victory of Deir Yassin."

Arnold Toynbee (UK historian) describes it as "comparable to crimes committed against the Jews by the Nazis."

Many similar operations are carried out around Palestine by heavily armed Jewish groups (mainly Haganah and Irgun):


Balad Esh-Sheikh (60 villagers killed).

Sa’sa’ (20 houses are blown up over their inhabitants, 60 Arabs killed, most of them women and children).

The Kattamon Quarter of Jerusalem (Arab women working in the St. Simon Monastry as servants are killed).

Lydda Town (250 killed as Jewish fighters shoot anything moving in the streets; up to 100 killed in the Dahmash Mosque; most of the town's 60,000 Arabs are expelled; these expulsions are approved by David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin).

Houla (a border village near Lebanon - the men surrender and request that they be allowed to stay - 50 are killed; only a thousand of the original 12,000 inhabitants remain).

Dawayma (near Haifa - between 50 and 100 are killed; some women are kept as sex slaves before being killed; many old people are killed when the mosque is blown up while they shelter inside).

The Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem is blown up burying its residents in the rubble; the killers shooting people as they fled.

At least 200 people are killed in Tantura, near Haifa. 1,500 residents are expelled. The village was later demolished to make way for a car park for a nearby beach kibbutz (cooperative farm).

Beit Daras (women and children are killed as they surrender).

Salha (105 people are lined up in the mosque and shot dead).

Israel has always stated that the Palestinians who left did so because of the war between Israel and Jordan, Syria and Egypt. This war did not begin until after the initial ethnic cleansing was well under way. The Haganah states that:

"[Palestinian Arab] villages inside the Jewish state that resist should be destroyed .... and their inhabitants expelled beyond the borders of the Jewish state. Meanwhile, Palestinian residents of the urban quarters which dominate access to or egress from towns should be EXPELLED beyond the borders of the Jewish state in the event of their resistance."

Since the creation of the State of Israel, the West's often uncritical support lays the foundations that would reverberate for decades. The USA immediately recognises the new state. The USSR also recognises Israel. The USA would arm and finance Israel and protect the state from United Nations criticism.

Between 1948 and 1960, over 1,000,000 more Jews would migrate from Europe, North America and North Africa to Israel.

"The main thing is the absorption of the immigrants. . . for many years, until. . . . a regime takes hold in the [Arab] world that does not threaten our existence. . . . The state's fate is dependent upon 'Aliyah [Jewish Immigration to Palestine]" (David Ben-Gurion)

Israel finds justification in the Old Testiment of the Bible:

"Destroy all of the land; beat down their pillars and break their statues and waste all of their high places, cleansing the land and dwelling in it, for I have given it to you for a possession" (Numbers 33:52,53)

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city both men and women, young and old and ox and sheep and ass with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21)

 

[traderfut2000]

I think like the jews will never forget what the nazi did to them the palestinian will also never forget what the ISraeli did to them. Till today Rs7 you have a hatred for german and the french and yet it was 60 years ago.

Till today the palestinian people are still suffering. And not recognising it is even an insult for your jewish ancestors. Some Israeli not a lot but some signed papers saying NO to what is going on. We as jews we cannot tolerate that.

I am quite horrified when you say that the palestinian quit by themselves when many historian know that this is simply no true.

Their land was stolen to them. This is the past but yet again you consider that what happened to the palestinian is their fault and that they are bloody terrorists. I have the greatest respect for the Jewish people who are hard working people and usually bright and smart people but certainly no respect for Israelits history and their policies.

 

[dgabriel]

TF, I agree there is great responsibility on the part of Israel in the peace process. There is equal responsibility by the other warring parties.

Your revisionist history of Israel and its birth supports my earlier post describing the Arab point of view.

Please give me the details of a Palestinian proffered peace proposal that promotes Palestinian welfare, democratic statehood, renounces terrorism in favor of peace and negotiation, and recognizes the state of Israel.

You will need a lot of revisionist history to come up with that one.

 

[candletrader]

Quote from dgabriel:


Please give me the details of a Palestinian proffered peace proposal that promotes Palestinian welfare, democratic statehood, renounces terrorism in favor of peace and negotiation, and recognizes the state of Israel.

Arafat's policies had approximated this, when he was working on the future with his partner in peace, and fellow 1994 Nobel Prize Winner, the late Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin... things could have certainly been much better by now, had Rabin not been assasinated by that misguided right-wing fanatic...