Part 1: (Sorry this response is so long...I feel like Darkhorse....but I don't know how else to respond to TF without a "cut and paste job". These are my thoughts, and anyone is obviously free to disregard them all)
Yes, TF, I am fully aware that Arabs are "semites" and never did I call you an anti-semite. What I said was that "anti-semitism" was rampant now in Europe, and especially so in France.
I also said that I could, but would not, do a "cut and paste" job to support these allegations. You know full well that I don't believe in that. Yet, here, once again, you do it. This article by Robert Jensen has been posted so many times on ET, I would know it by heart if I had read it each time (I didn't, and I won't for the very reasons I explained more than once.....I am interested in what YOU have to say, not what you have to quote).
As a practical matter, let's agree that the term "anti-semite" although used loosely, and inaccurately (since you are correct, and arabs are semites), is, for practical purposes construed as meaning "anti-jewish". So let's forego the technical definition of "semite". At least in America, it means "anti-jewish". If you are more comfortable with that term, then I will use it. I am sure you knew what I meant anyway.
TF, let's just agree to disagree. You think Israel is a terrorist state. Have you been there? While I sympathize somewhat with the plight of the Palestinians, there are certainly two sides to all the issues. I am getting tired of repeating myself. I am getting tired of having to. But once again.....the Palestinians could have a homeland if their leadership (Arafat) would accept compromise. Again, 98% of what he wanted was offered. Why must he have 100%? My only logical conclusion is that he does not want peace.
The VAST MAJORITY of Israeli citizens DO NOT want to fight over the disputed territories. They want PEACE! And expected to have it over two years ago.
But peace was abandoned by Arafat, and now the situation stinks for all parties.
Israel has, indeed, inflicted casualties on innocent Palestinians. But not with intent. Suicide bombers have only one intent. And that is to kill innocent non-combatants. Do you disagree with this? Is bombing discos and pizza joints part of a strategy to tactically eliminate military threats? Or is it to cause fear and terror?
You call Israel a "nazi" regime. You say the Palestinians have a right to the land that is now Israel because they were there first. What about the Jews? How far back in time would you like to go? 50 years? 2000 years? 3000 years? Last month? What? What time frame is most convenient to your argument?
If the Palestinians are entitled to a homeland, are not the Jews? If the Palestinians are entitled to fight for a homeland, were not the Jews? After World War II, a state was established as a Jewish homeland. Was this something that they were not entitled to? And did they take (or where they given) some kind of paradise? Or a tiny strip of desert that they irrigated and brought into the 20th century through hard work and struggle?
You said the Palestinians did not want to remain in Jordan...the territory the partition of Palestine gave these arab people the same rights to build as the jews got in what became Israel. But what did they accomplish in Jordan?
You gave an example of me being forced from my home of New York, and how I would rather return than make a new home. So this is the "right of return" issue. Indeed a complex issue. Are some "palestinians" getting a bad deal in this? Yes, they are. But things are what they are. A lot of time has passed. And furthermore, the arab neighbors told the Palestinians in Israel to leave, because Israel (the Jews) would be driven into the sea in 1948. So believing this, the Arab residents left, hoping to come back soon. But the Arabs LOST that unprovoked war, and so the Arabs of Egypt and Syria basically let down the "palestinians". They told them to leave their homes, and they did. Then they (the other Arab nations) lost the war, and the Palestinians were screwed. But not only did they lose their homes (by deserting them), they weren't even accepted into the nations that supposedly supported their cause (the "palestinian" cause).
So the "palestinians" left their homes in Israel, were not allowed to assimilate into society in their neighboring Arab countries....they were kept in refugee camps....and were treated as second class citizens (at best) by their supposed "brothers".
So yeah, these people have suffered on all fronts. And now, Israel is supposed to do exactly what? Return the land that was abandoned? The land that the jews worked so hard for so long to develop? Sounds like a sweet deal for the Palestinians. And what of the jews that put in all the work? Are they to go back to Russia and Germany and Poland and all the other places they fled with no belongings and no rights to even live?
You have a choice of going to a death camp in Poland or fleeing to Israel (British Palestine) with nothing but hope, what would you opt for?
You make it to British Palestine, you fight for independence, and win. Do you turn around 55 years later and say....."hey you guys that fled, yeah, I worked hard to make a life here, but since you once were here, I will just pack it in and leave, and you can have it back. Even though you have been trying to take it (unsuccessfully) by force for so many years".
Then what? Go back to Poland where they still to this day spit on Jews? Sounds like a really pleasant alternative to staying and fighting for what you spent so long to build into a "new" homeland.
And what is the real definition of "new"? TF, you and I have gone through this before. The Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago. Kicked out, came back, kicked out, came back. Why? because it is such a lush paradise? No, my friend, it is because it is the holy land. And as it is also a (not the) holy land in Islam, as well as in Christianity, everyone wants Jerusalem. And you know what? Jerusalem could (and will someday) be shared as a holy city. But in the meantime, those friendly folks who love to blow up civilian targets don't want to share. So the Western Wall has to be heavily guarded by IDF. Have Israelis ever tried to desecrate Islamic holy sites? When the Church of the Nativity was under siege in Bethlehem recently, who were the perpetrators? When the Taliban decided to destroy Buddhist (or was it Hindu) holy sites, did Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists retaliate by destroying Islamic holy sites and shrines?
Quote from traderfut2000:
Do you know what a semite is????
I am a semite so don't accuse me of being anti semite, but certainly pro peace and anti the Israeli terrorism payed by american taxes.
by Robert Jensen
I helped kill a Palestinian today.
..............
Yes, TF, I am fully aware that Arabs are "semites" and never did I call you an anti-semite. What I said was that "anti-semitism" was rampant now in Europe, and especially so in France.
I also said that I could, but would not, do a "cut and paste" job to support these allegations. You know full well that I don't believe in that. Yet, here, once again, you do it. This article by Robert Jensen has been posted so many times on ET, I would know it by heart if I had read it each time (I didn't, and I won't for the very reasons I explained more than once.....I am interested in what YOU have to say, not what you have to quote).
As a practical matter, let's agree that the term "anti-semite" although used loosely, and inaccurately (since you are correct, and arabs are semites), is, for practical purposes construed as meaning "anti-jewish". So let's forego the technical definition of "semite". At least in America, it means "anti-jewish". If you are more comfortable with that term, then I will use it. I am sure you knew what I meant anyway.
TF, let's just agree to disagree. You think Israel is a terrorist state. Have you been there? While I sympathize somewhat with the plight of the Palestinians, there are certainly two sides to all the issues. I am getting tired of repeating myself. I am getting tired of having to. But once again.....the Palestinians could have a homeland if their leadership (Arafat) would accept compromise. Again, 98% of what he wanted was offered. Why must he have 100%? My only logical conclusion is that he does not want peace.
The VAST MAJORITY of Israeli citizens DO NOT want to fight over the disputed territories. They want PEACE! And expected to have it over two years ago.
But peace was abandoned by Arafat, and now the situation stinks for all parties.
Israel has, indeed, inflicted casualties on innocent Palestinians. But not with intent. Suicide bombers have only one intent. And that is to kill innocent non-combatants. Do you disagree with this? Is bombing discos and pizza joints part of a strategy to tactically eliminate military threats? Or is it to cause fear and terror?
You call Israel a "nazi" regime. You say the Palestinians have a right to the land that is now Israel because they were there first. What about the Jews? How far back in time would you like to go? 50 years? 2000 years? 3000 years? Last month? What? What time frame is most convenient to your argument?
If the Palestinians are entitled to a homeland, are not the Jews? If the Palestinians are entitled to fight for a homeland, were not the Jews? After World War II, a state was established as a Jewish homeland. Was this something that they were not entitled to? And did they take (or where they given) some kind of paradise? Or a tiny strip of desert that they irrigated and brought into the 20th century through hard work and struggle?
You said the Palestinians did not want to remain in Jordan...the territory the partition of Palestine gave these arab people the same rights to build as the jews got in what became Israel. But what did they accomplish in Jordan?
You gave an example of me being forced from my home of New York, and how I would rather return than make a new home. So this is the "right of return" issue. Indeed a complex issue. Are some "palestinians" getting a bad deal in this? Yes, they are. But things are what they are. A lot of time has passed. And furthermore, the arab neighbors told the Palestinians in Israel to leave, because Israel (the Jews) would be driven into the sea in 1948. So believing this, the Arab residents left, hoping to come back soon. But the Arabs LOST that unprovoked war, and so the Arabs of Egypt and Syria basically let down the "palestinians". They told them to leave their homes, and they did. Then they (the other Arab nations) lost the war, and the Palestinians were screwed. But not only did they lose their homes (by deserting them), they weren't even accepted into the nations that supposedly supported their cause (the "palestinian" cause).
So the "palestinians" left their homes in Israel, were not allowed to assimilate into society in their neighboring Arab countries....they were kept in refugee camps....and were treated as second class citizens (at best) by their supposed "brothers".
So yeah, these people have suffered on all fronts. And now, Israel is supposed to do exactly what? Return the land that was abandoned? The land that the jews worked so hard for so long to develop? Sounds like a sweet deal for the Palestinians. And what of the jews that put in all the work? Are they to go back to Russia and Germany and Poland and all the other places they fled with no belongings and no rights to even live?
You have a choice of going to a death camp in Poland or fleeing to Israel (British Palestine) with nothing but hope, what would you opt for?
You make it to British Palestine, you fight for independence, and win. Do you turn around 55 years later and say....."hey you guys that fled, yeah, I worked hard to make a life here, but since you once were here, I will just pack it in and leave, and you can have it back. Even though you have been trying to take it (unsuccessfully) by force for so many years".
Then what? Go back to Poland where they still to this day spit on Jews? Sounds like a really pleasant alternative to staying and fighting for what you spent so long to build into a "new" homeland.
And what is the real definition of "new"? TF, you and I have gone through this before. The Jews were in Israel thousands of years ago. Kicked out, came back, kicked out, came back. Why? because it is such a lush paradise? No, my friend, it is because it is the holy land. And as it is also a (not the) holy land in Islam, as well as in Christianity, everyone wants Jerusalem. And you know what? Jerusalem could (and will someday) be shared as a holy city. But in the meantime, those friendly folks who love to blow up civilian targets don't want to share. So the Western Wall has to be heavily guarded by IDF. Have Israelis ever tried to desecrate Islamic holy sites? When the Church of the Nativity was under siege in Bethlehem recently, who were the perpetrators? When the Taliban decided to destroy Buddhist (or was it Hindu) holy sites, did Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists retaliate by destroying Islamic holy sites and shrines?
We will find out how Jesus really should be living in Saddams Palaces or some such nonsense. But I thought it pertinent to address TF....he said I called him an Anti-Semite. I did not, and I wanted to defend myself. I don't mind being quoted. I do mind when people put words in my mouth.