Penn and Teller do a very good job at explaining the Second Amendment

very nice... is it me or are penn and teller getting a bit less leftist. Perhaps they have always been old school liberals and the democrat party left them as it has decided to become more fascist.

Penn and Teller do a very good job at explaining the Second Amendment... even liberals can understand it now too.

This 1:26 Minute Video Explains The Second Amendment As Concisely And Effectively As You'll Ever See
http://www.ijreview.com/2014/02/114...tion-second-amendment-concise-effective-gets/

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very nice... is it me or are penn and teller getting a bit less leftist. Perhaps they have always been old school liberals and the democrat party left them as it has decided to become more fascist.

You should watch some of there stuff on religion, truely educational.
 
You should watch some of there stuff on religion, truely educational.

I have and too often it they leave at the best points the other side makes...

sort of what they did in the video above. They sort of set up a strawman... like the guy who implicity or explicity misreads the constitution and then they hit him with a bat.

The technique is more legitimate when the subject is something as black and white as the second amendment.
 
Unfortunately, Jem, the 2nd Amendment is no where near "black and white." You only have to read Justice Scalia's majority opinion to recognize that.

It's unfortunate that the second amendment is hopelessly obsolete. One way we have adapted to our 200 + year old, obsolescent constitution is to ignore it at times and at other times to interpret it in light of modern developments. In practice, this has sometimes worked well and sometimes not. Most recently, Scalia took the opportunity to interpret the 2nd Amendment in light of the modern reality that there are already millions of guns in private hands. He used a clever argument to find the Amendment consistent with modern reality, and vice versa.

The closest we come to State Militias today is the National Guard. But today's National Guard is hardly the equivalent of 18th century, independent State Militias armed with muzzle loaders. Since there is no longer a need to arm the citizens for the purpose of raising a militia -- one of the valid interpretations of the Amendment -- Scalia got around this problem by ignoring the phrase before the comma -- "A well regulated militia". The "strict constructionist" became the selective, strict constructionist. He fell back on an alternate, but also valid, interpretation, based on historical arguments, to justify that part of the 2nd Amendment after the comma.

It is known that some at the time the 2nd amendment was drafted were concerned about State sovereignty. They were fearful of an overbearing Federal Government. They wanted to be able to arm the populace so the States could defend themselves against the potential tyranny of a Federal Government. This view was held by a vocal minority at the time the Amendment was drafted. There was another faction, however, less fearful of federal tyranny, that envisioned that there might arise a need to raise an army. They did not object to the wording of the Amendment, so long as guns could be kept out of the hands of the dispossessed. (The Constitution had been carefully drafted to make certain suffrage would not extend to the dispossessed.) The result was wording for the 2nd Amendment that could be interpreted in more than one way. It satisfied both factions.

The 18th century barrier to guns finding there way into the hands of slaves, indentured servants and Indians no longer exist, so today's dispossessed can easily obtain them. In his opinion, however, Scalia does not mention an inconsistency caused by invoking the historical arguments of the faction that concerned itself with the potential for federal tyranny, while ignoring the reality that the concerns of the other faction would be very much valid today. Suffrage is no longer highly selective, and guns are now very much in the hands of the modern equivalent of the 18th century dispossessed.

Today in the U.S. there are millions of guns of all sorts in private hands. As a practical matter, it is too late to change that. It is not too late, however, for reasonable gun laws. But anything that might eventually be effective would necessitate that the law be both uniform and enforceable in all the States. There is no will in the Congress, at present anyway, to achieve that. We had best just forget about reasonable, uniform gun laws and learn to live with the mess our founders created through no fault of their own. Our forefathers were no more capable of looking accurately two centuries into the future then we are today.
 
I have and too often it they leave at the best points the other side makes...

sort of what they did in the video above. They sort of set up a strawman... like the guy who implicity or explicity misreads the constitution and then they hit him with a bat.

The technique is more legitimate when the subject is something as black and white as the second amendment.

The second amendment isn't black and white.
And we are all for infringements on arms so in that way we are ok with putting an interpretation or spin on the 2nd amendment.
 
The second amendment isn't black and white.
And we are all for infringements on arms so in that way we are ok with putting an interpretation or spin on the 2nd amendment.

You're such a lost soul. The 2nd Amendment IS black, and white, cut and dried. The FREE people are NEVER to be denied the right to take up arms in order to restore government from tyranny. And YES, your God Onazi, and his Gestapo are EXACTLY tyrannical. I know it's sadly your wet dream to see a dictator in charge of America, but it won't last much longer here. If you want that, you should move to Cuba where you can attempt to do roofing jobs and get paid what the tyrants think you should be able to keep.
 
Unfortunately, Jem, the 2nd Amendment is no where near "black and white." You only have to read Justice Scalia's majority opinion to recognize that.
Did the good judge write the 2nd amendment? I ask because I base my interpretation of the 2nd on the relevant writings and comments of those who did write and vote on it 200 plus years ago.
If everyone else including Scalia would do the same. There wouldn't be much to debate.
 
Did the good judge write the 2nd amendment? I ask because I base my interpretation of the 2nd on the relevant writings and comments of those who did write and vote on it 200 plus years ago.
If everyone else including Scalia would do the same. There wouldn't be much to debate.
I think what you are getting at is actually the argument Scalia used to essentially cut the 2nd Amendment into two parts. The part before the comma and the part after the comma. He then went on to expound on his own perspective of 2nd Amendment history. He refers to the dichotomy in the interpretation of the need to raise a militia phrase, and went on to use arguments that were put forth at the time the Amendment was being debated.

I've read Scalia's entire Opinion, which was the majority opinion, but I have not read all, or hardly any actually, of the existing historical record. I imagine you have, and you probably have as accurate a view of what transpired as anyone in these forums. In the end, Scalia fell back on the belief of some in the original debate who believed that the need for a militia might arise out of the peoples need to resist a federal tyranny.

The ambiguity problem for the Amendment arises out of the phrase before the comma. Is that phrase referring to a States militia for defense against the federal government, or is that phrase referring to the raising of a federal militia, or is it both. In the end, my impression is that Scalia believed it wasn't one or the other, but both. Therefore -- and believe me his Opinion dragged on for many pages and it isn't easy to distill -- I believe he was falling back on original intent of at least some of the original correspondents who wanted the "militia" to be interpreted as a State's militia to defend against federal tyranny. The concern of that faction could be argued to be still valid today, and Scalia, allowed that argument to stand! Nevertheless practical considerations strain ones credulity; imagine citizens with semiautomatic rifles and pistols being able to effectively resist the power of federal troops.

Scalia's argument is essentially one that disregards a federal militia, since there is now no need to arm the populace for that purpose, but acknowledges the other meaning of "militia": the raising of a citizens or States' militia to defend against federal tyranny. To retain his membership in the "Strict Constructionist Club," Scalia did not have to say that a concern more than two hundred years ago was also a concern today, he merely inferred it. Thanks to Antonin Scalia we will keep our guns.

In my own, of course overly humble, opinion, what he really did, as the Court has done so often, is find a clever way to bring our obsolescent Constitution in line with modern reality, and vice versa; in so doing he brought the Amendment up-to-date while leaving it entirely intact, but perhaps a little bruised. True, the undemocratic, judicial process he used may have produced a flawed result, depending on who you talk to. But regardless, the efficiency of the Courts actions compared to the otherwise cumbersome, but democratic, amendment process is something to marvel at. It's as if Scalia had said, as he actually has in other matters, "There, it's done! Get over it!"

Have you read Scalia's opinion? If you have, I'd be interested in your view of it. If not, I think you, because of your knowledge of 2nd Amendment history, would find it very interesting.

You have thoroughly convinced me of the ineffectiveness of piecemeal gun control legislation. I remain convinced, however, that effective gun control legislation is possible without violating the second Amendment, but I am equally convinced it's not going to happen in our time.

I think, by the way, Scalia's opinion is defective in a way I haven't yet touched on in this post, but I did mention it in responding to Jem. I was expecting Jem to become "hyperbolically ad hominemistic", to coin a phrase, on reading my response, but I've heard nothing yet. (The defect I see, has to do with post revolutionary concerns about arms falling into the hands of slaves, indentured servants and indians and the then-in-place protections against this, imperfect as they were. Those fundamental protections in post revolutionary times stemmed from disenfranchisement of the dispossessed. But, of course, those protections no longer exist! If Scalia was determined to construct an historical foundation for his Opinion, then it behooved him, to include all of the relevant history. Had he done that, he should have had a more difficult time renovating our 2nd Amendment in light of current realities. Today's near equivalent of the post revolutionary dispossessed population is armed to the teeth!
 
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