Options: Training / Courses / Reading List

H

HermesTrismegistus

hi

Would like to get an idea of courses and training you have found useful.
I am guessing the spammy emails I get are from poor-traders/vendors rather than actual traders.

How long did your training last before you felt confident to take your first options trade.

Whats an optimum account size you felt helped got you reasonable returns?
(I am allocating 30K£ as seed capital)

Thanks

PS: as an aside, is Jeff Bishop legit? Very over-the-top marketing.
 
I'll summarize @MarkBrown's link for you.

1. Trading options requires considerable study and nearly no one profitable will tell you how to do it. I have personally wasted money on a few options courses (thankfully I spent under $500 altogether) to realize that I should probably just finish my math courses and go it on my own. There is no valuable options course. Period. You're on your own.

2. From (1), you are now left to understand (mostly by yourself) one of the most complicated markets in the world.

3. There is absolutely no trading course out there that will make you money because the dynamics of options make risk preferences infinitely variable.

4. Most options books are written by ex-MMs from the 1980s when money is was easy, pricing was wrong, and everything was done by shouting at each other. It's not that easy anymore. Especially for retails.

Your best bet is to start with the classics and work your way out from there. "Options as a Strategic Investment" is probably one of the best casual start up books. Buy the workbook. Plan on not seeing your family for months while you study it. Repeat this over and over again for every book you read.

If your goal is to trade volatility your path is going to be very painful if you are not mathematically inclined. There are "simple ways" to do it. But if you are not mathematically selecting strikes, expirations, etc you are doing it wrong. Period.

RE: Jeff Bishop - He's a tool. His main selling point is "listen to me because im MENSA smart". Absolute trash. He is a good example of who to avoid. If you can project Tim Sykes or Jeff Bishop onto someone and see a close match - don't walk, RUN away. His strategy revolves around buying options. For a guy who claims to have studied "advanced mathematics" he must've been asleep during his probability theory courses.
 
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I am a profitable options trader. Check out tastytrade.com for basic options understanding. From there, check out Ron Bertino’s course. Finally, I would learn from Scott Ruble aka J L Lord. He’s difficult to listen to, but there are a few nuggets of wisdom in his classes. For inspiration, check out the four Karen the Supertrader videos on YouTube. Contrary to popular belief from the haters here on ET,this lady knows how to make money selling options.

Now sit back and watch the haters aka losers attack my advice.
 
I believe this book has some worth for the newer option trader. Plus there is a chance if you approach options from more of an investing/long term perspective that you may actually become successful.

 
Sweet Bobby said:
I am a profitable options trader. Check out tastytrade.com for basic options understanding. From there, check out Ron Bertino’s course. Finally, I would learn from Scott Ruble aka J L Lord. He’s difficult to listen to, but there are a few nuggets of wisdom in his classes. For inspiration, check out the four Karen the Supertrader videos on YouTube. Contrary to popular belief from the haters here on ET,this lady knows how to make money selling options.

Now sit back and watch the haters aka losers attack my advice.
More...

I think Gaussian is basically right. I also decided options isn't worth the huge learning curve (to really understand and even have a chance of being profitable). I'm not talking about buying, selling, spreads and basic trade setups. That's not difficult. I'm talking about the mulit-layered positions, hedging, adjustments and understanding for just a fighting chance of being profitable AND surviving black swans and sudden changes in market direction and volatility. You can be profitable with spreads and iron condors for months/years in calm markets, then suddenly blow your account. Some option selling CTAs and services blew up during February and Oct-Dec of last year...and neither of those were true bear markets.

That said, I've heard good things about Bertino (not for the newbies, though). I believe Lord is the guy who popularized BWB setups. Most of the allegedly better traders and services use that structure...though it's not a guaranteed profit or anything.

Tastytrade is fine for learning basics, but I don't like their "make tons of small trades with different setups and hope you'll come out profitable" approach." Try exiting or adjusting 15 positions during a market crash--especially with a day job. Remember, you may have trouble getting fills during a crash, and your software may fail to give you accurate data when you need it the most.

I'd only learn from Karen The Super Failure for a case study in what not to do. I'm surprised to see her name in the same paragraph with Bertino. In general, good courses, mentors or even free sources online are VERY hard to find. Avoid all of the mass-marketed stuff that frequently shows up in trading forums, Google, FB feeds, etc.
 
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Also, you can read "Options as a Strategic Investment" and books/material by Natenberg, Paul Forchione, Charles Cottle, etc. They're generally respected and recommended by most option traders (not overhyped fluff). However, I don't think any of those guys ever managed a profitable fund or ran a trading service with 3rd-party audited performance. That goes to show that being an expert with academic understanding and actually trading profitably are two very different things.
 
MKTrader said:
Tastytrade is fine for learning basics, but I don't like their "make tons of small trades with different setups and hope you'll come out profitable" approach." Try exiting or adjusting 15 positions during a market crash--especially with a day job. Remember, you may have trouble getting fills during a crash, and your software may fail to give you accurate data when you need it the most.

I'd only learn from Karen The Super Failure for a case study in what not to do. I'm surprised to see her name in the same paragraph with Bertino. In general, good courses, mentors or even free sources online are VERY hard to find. Avoid all of the mass-marketed stuff that frequently shows up in trading forums, Google, FB feeds, etc.
More...

@Sweet Bobby is a shill for little Tommy Sosnoff and Karen the Super Fraud. You can even tell in his "watch the haters attack me" comment.

TastyTrade is bad for the same reason OptionAlpha is bad. Their techniques don't work unless you have enough capital to weather the storm, and their "probability of success" is glorified tea leaf reading. The few quants they actually bring on are basically talked over by Tom who then pitches some form of "just sell volatility on FAANG" etc etc. There is no indication any of them are profitable. This is not to say you cannot make money selling options but as you said, it is very complicated and if you are not hedged right and mathematically sound in your trade you ARE going to fail. You can look at the optionsellers.com blow up for what confidence without intelligence looks like. TastyTrade will give you exactly that.

You mentioned a point I forgot and I completely agree. Stops don't work on complicated options positions. Due to the dynamics of hedging a spread they must be individually managed. This vastly increases the complexity if you work a day job where you can't monitor the markets.
 
gaussian said:
@Sweet Bobby is a shill for little Tommy Sosnoff and Karen the Super Fraud. You can even tell in his "watch the haters attack me" comment.
More...

Here's the nicest take I can give on Karen, the self-taught grandma CPA-turned-fund manager. Karen thought her background in numbers/finance was enough to give her an edge and understand risk. In that way, she's not much different than a lot of engineers, programmers, etc. here. But she got in way over her head and didn't understand how bad and complicated things get with options and OPM.
 
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gaussian said:
@Sweet Bobby is a shill for little Tommy Sosnoff and Karen the Super Fraud. You can even tell in his "watch the haters attack me" comment.

TastyTrade is bad for the same reason OptionAlpha is bad. Their techniques don't work unless you have enough capital to weather the storm, and their "probability of success" is glorified tea leaf reading. The few quants they actually bring on are basically talked over by Tom who then pitches some form of "just sell volatility on FAANG" etc etc. There is no indication any of them are profitable. This is not to say you cannot make money selling options but as you said, it is very complicated and if you are not hedged right and mathematically sound in your trade you ARE going to fail. You can look at the optionsellers.com blow up for what confidence without intelligence looks like. TastyTrade will give you exactly that.

You mentioned a point I forgot and I completely agree. Stops don't work on complicated options positions. Due to the dynamics of hedging a spread they must be individually managed. This vastly increases the complexity if you work a day job where you can't monitor the markets.
More...
You wouldn’t know a butterfly if it kissed you on the ass!
 
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