On 10-case geometry and beyond

[JamesRoscoe]

Question about EE-Ab, for the group



I'm getting more "comfortable" with the EE stuff. It's actually kinda fun. Messy and quite confusing sometimes, mostly due to failsafes imo, but engaging, proactive, and... fun! I've learned a lot just since last friday! As Jack said... weekends have a purpose. My weekend aha is the EEs are for segments... huge, HUGE aha, FOR ME!!

As for Brooks, I have his books. I read them. Meh. I'm pretty sure my Brooks reading came AFTER i spent time learning and trading with VSA (Volume Spread Analysis). Which explains my indifference to Brooks. Idk if Brooks or VSA was first to market. VSA was and still is worthwhile, very much so!

In an experiment to get away from Gaussians directly, but keeping a strong adherence to them, Im doing the exact opposite of you... I look at the independent, and see what the dependent is doing... Volume leads price, always! Volume tells you, mandates, what you have geometrically.

Thanks

I was conditioned on Jack's earliest work at ET when used the stochastic and MACD to stage trades. Volume was the last consideration back then. At least the way I understood it. The only thing volume did back then to tell us to stay out of DU. So when I saw I saw the EE Ab and it's sisters as the trend progress it was an easy translation to me. If volume falls below T1, that is DU or VDU and it is time to go.

 

[tiddlywinks]

Good thing this isn't a hookup or porn site!

That EE-Ab opening was an artifact of a message that I did not post over the weekend.
Personally, I think its more of a bug than a feature... typed but unposted text remains, per thread, until overwritten and/or posted. I didn't see that first line artifact.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[JamesRoscoe]

Good thing this isn't a hookup or porn site!

That EE-Ab opening was an artifact of a message that I did not post over the weekend.
Personally, I think its more of a bug than a feature... typed but unposted text remains, per thread, until overwritten and/or posted. I didn't see that first line artifact.

Sorry for the confusion.

No problem. I was wondering about it myself, but in the interest of good natured discussion, I tried to give my take on things.

 

[Sprout]

I was conditioned on Jack's earliest work at ET when used the stochastic and MACD to stage trades. Volume was the last consideration back then. At least the way I understood it. The only thing volume did back then to tell us to stay out of DU. So when I saw I saw the EE Ab and it's sisters as the trend progress it was an easy translation to me. If volume falls below T1, that is DU or VDU and it is time to go.

As I see it, Jack’s writings have consistently created ‘spaces’ in one’s inference that only purposeful learning could fill. To do that he would go to where the student’s current state of market knowledge existed and stimulate thinking that was tailored to them. It’s my interpretation of why he didn’t start any threads until near the end of his career and chose mostly to participate via a Q&A format.

If you are familiar with DU and VDU through PVT, then FRV, building a HQ universe of stocks, DAS and cyclical scoring would have even more meaning.

Volume has always been a central theme in Jack’s universe, regardless of what he was emphasizing with a particular concept at a particular time.

The independent variable leads the dependent variable - always with no anomalies, flaws, noise nor exceptions (provided sufficient liquidity exists)

 

[JamesRoscoe]

As I see it, Jack’s writings have consistently created ‘spaces’ in one’s inference that only purposeful learning could fill. To do that he would go to where the student’s current state of market knowledge existed and stimulate thinking that was tailored to them. It’s my interpretation of why he didn’t start any threads until near the end of his career and chose mostly to participate via a Q&A format.

If you are familiar with DU and VDU through PVT, then FRV, building a HQ universe of stocks, DAS and cyclical scoring would have even more meaning.

Volume has always been a central theme in Jack’s universe, regardless of what he was emphasizing with a particular concept at a particular time.

The independent variable leads the dependent variable - always with no anomalies, flaws, noise nor exceptions (provided sufficient liquidity exists)

The terms that you espouse came later in his career at ET. Here is a page from a thread from much earlier. He in fact did believe there "flaws" in the market . I absolutely agree with you about Jack and his rabbit holes. I also absolutely agree with volume being a central theme in his work. But there was a time when he did believe that the market had flaws. At the risk of dating myself, I was present as a lurker in real time since Jack came to ET. I know his work very, very well.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...ershey-futures-trading-journal.83604/page-736

http://wealthv.com/learn/et_threads/JackHersheyFutures.htm

Mini Glossary (Common Acronyms Used)

FTT – Failure to Traverse
CCC – Congestion, Convergence, Centering
HVS – High Volatility Stall
LTR – Left to Right
RTL – Right to Left
LTL – Left Trend Line
RTL – Right Trend Line
Flaws – Not an FTT (examples: Hitch, Dip, Stall, HVS, CCC)
FBO – Failure to Break Out of a channel
BO – Break Out of a channel

As you can clearly see, his work did in fact evolve over time.

 

[NeedToLearn]

Hi folks,

I took a break from RDBMS for awhile as I just didn't understand what it is that I was missing to even ask questions. The recent discussions and materials you guys laid out in the other thread about ending events brought a new light to the understanding of this method and I was wondering if I'm approaching this the right way.

Here's a snippet from yesterday with annotations for bars 21 to 30. Although in terms of gaussians that seemed like the perfect R2R2B2R (with 2B's completed inside the lateral), I realized I'm getting 2 extra P1's during the sequence. Just wanted to check if I understood this correctly.

Btw, the document from JR and Sprout's Band maps are truly golden. Makes it so much easier to understand than just reading through Jack's posts.

 

[Sprout]

The terms that you espouse came later in his career at ET. Here is a page from a thread from much earlier. He in fact did believe there "flaws" in the market . I absolutely agree with you about Jack and his rabbit holes. I also absolutely agree with volume being a central theme in his work. But there was a time when he did believe that the market had flaws. At the risk of dating myself, I was present as a lurker in real time since Jack came to ET. I know his work very, very well.

https://www.elitetrader.com/et/thre...ershey-futures-trading-journal.83604/page-736

http://wealthv.com/learn/et_threads/JackHersheyFutures.htm

Mini Glossary (Common Acronyms Used)

FTT – Failure to Traverse
CCC – Congestion, Convergence, Centering
HVS – High Volatility Stall
LTR – Left to Right
RTL – Right to Left
LTL – Left Trend Line
RTL – Right Trend Line
Flaws – Not an FTT (examples: Hitch, Dip, Stall, HVS, CCC)
FBO – Failure to Break Out of a channel
BO – Break Out of a channel

As you can clearly see, his work did in fact evolve over time.

The links that you reference are not Jack’s posts nor his words. It's others offering hearsay.

When Jack mentioned “flaws” he had it in quotes for in my interpretation he was attempting to communicate how others view markets. The only thing he ever considered a “flaw” was a WWT. Sometimes he would refer to FTT's as "flaws" but that was always contextual to emphasize "change" from "continue".


A search through ET with Jack Hershey and Flaw as keywords pulls up the various contexts that he uses “flaw”

The above search lead me to a small list, the greatest use of the word "flaw" was in the Stochastic Indicator thread circa 2003:
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/the-stochastic-indicator.14129/

A history of Jack's trading explained by Jack.
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/science-meta-physics-and-trading.16000/page-10#post-234948

Flaws as it relates to FTT and WWT.
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/seykotas-method.17719/page-9#post-263116

Jack explicitly describing "flaws"
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/technical-strategy.141661/page-18#post-2128376


I agree that Jack's work evolved through time. However, ihmo, the overwhelming majority of his posts on the subject were of the sentiment that the market is without flaws, anomalies nor noise.

I did not have the pleasure of interacting with the man. However his thoughts about the markets live on in his writings and what better way to get to know a man than to read the man's words directly.


Although we have different interpretations, I appreciate the discussion.

 

[tiddlywinks]

Hi folks,

I took a break from RDBMS for awhile as I just didn't understand what it is that I was missing to even ask questions. The recent discussions and materials you guys laid out in the other thread about ending events brought a new light to the understanding of this method and I was wondering if I'm approaching this the right way.

Here's a snippet from yesterday with annotations for bars 21 to 30. Although in terms of gaussians that seemed like the perfect R2R2B2R (with 2B's completed inside the lateral), I realized I'm getting 2 extra P1's during the sequence. Just wanted to check if I understood this correctly.

Btw, the document from JR and Sprout's Band maps are truly golden. Makes it so much easier to understand than just reading through Jack's posts.

This is my take... Remember to stay in the proper lane! EEs are about segments.

 

[Sprout]

Hi folks,

I took a break from RDBMS for awhile as I just didn't understand what it is that I was missing to even ask questions. The recent discussions and materials you guys laid out in the other thread about ending events brought a new light to the understanding of this method and I was wondering if I'm approaching this the right way.

Here's a snippet from yesterday with annotations for bars 21 to 30. Although in terms of gaussians that seemed like the perfect R2R2B2R (with 2B's completed inside the lateral), I realized I'm getting 2 extra P1's during the sequence. Just wanted to check if I understood this correctly.

Btw, the document from JR and Sprout's Band maps are truly golden. Makes it so much easier to understand than just reading through Jack's posts.

You're building a baseline of reference. This is good.

The annotation style that you are using (PVT, SCT) to define tapes/traverses/channels gives you the foundation by which to annotate TL's via RDBMS.

The previous style of annotating tapes/traverses/channels is a layer that one can turn on/off at will.

RDBMS uses a more simplistic method of annotating and use just a single TL for a trend segment. This TL is defined by P1, P1 or P1, T1 of volume defining the rtl of the new trend segment. A new trend segment can only occur if the previous trend segment is complete.


For your specific question, using the red arrow as the leftmost window, the Ag-vebo would get a BM -long at it's low for it's an EE and we are anticipating a change in trend segment dominance and a non-Dom traverse.

bar26,27,28 are all internals of bar25 and are not measured unless 1) a failsafe takes precedence. All bars are degapped, mentally or with software.

bar27 is a lat3, no wait from this point on and all bars are measured within the lateral as long as the lateral exists.

bar28 triggers retro. Retro does rev chron within a qualifying lateral. Rev chron yields the EE PP6 at bar28. Since this is an EE completing a trend segment, a BM-short goes at it's high. PP6 assigns the next bar as P1 in volume. The non-Dom traverse has completed and WMCN (a return to Dominance is anticipated.)

bar29's high is the pt3 of price compared to the BM on the bar before and therefore forms the TL of the new trend segment. WMCN did in fact occur, if it didn't then it becomes a WWT.

Although this sequence "fits", during debriefing another sequence might "fit" better. The difference is in clarity and continuity. The sequence that gives greater clarity and continuity to WCB and WMCN is the correct one.

There's a lot of guessing in the beginning, it's not important to get the fish as a beginner, it's more important to learn the process of fishing. Just like in learning to ride a bike, it's the process by which one gets up from not-balance that will ultimately lead to balance.

Every time that the assigned P1's anticipate a BO, and the BO in fact occurs like clockwork on the next bar, the more one's confidence grows in the precision of the method and the growing skill one has in implementing it.

 

[JamesRoscoe]

The links that you reference are not Jack’s posts nor his words. It's others offering hearsay.

When Jack mentioned “flaws” he had it in quotes for in my interpretation he was attempting to communicate how others view markets. The only thing he ever considered a “flaw” was a WWT. Sometimes he would refer to FTT's as "flaws" but that was always contextual to emphasize "change" from "continue".


A search through ET with Jack Hershey and Flaw as keywords pulls up the various contexts that he uses “flaw”

The above search lead me to a small list, the greatest use of the word "flaw" was in the Stochastic Indicator thread circa 2003:
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/the-stochastic-indicator.14129/

A history of Jack's trading explained by Jack.
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/science-meta-physics-and-trading.16000/page-10#post-234948

Flaws as it relates to FTT and WWT.
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/seykotas-method.17719/page-9#post-263116

Jack explicitly describing "flaws"
https://www.elitetrader.com/et/threads/technical-strategy.141661/page-18#post-2128376


I agree that Jack's work evolved through time. However, ihmo, the overwhelming majority of his posts on the subject were of the sentiment that the market is without flaws, anomalies nor noise.

I did not have the pleasure of interacting with the man. However his thoughts about the markets live on in his writings and what better way to get to know a man than to read the man's words directly.


Although we have different interpretations, I appreciate the discussion.

Me too Sprout. The one thing that Hershey students were always able to do is to remain civil. I have come to the conclusion that Jack's final work is a great one and I happy that there are living souls to carry it forward.