Obama touts this as success

Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

.... current lithium-ion batteries aren't good enough for electric vehicles and better batteries are at least a decade away.
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This should be obvious to all. We just don't have the battery know-how. Personally, I think we are further than 10 years away from a significantly better battery. For electric autos to be widely accepted we really need a battery that holds 5 or 10 times the energy in the same amount of space.

But, even then, if efficiencies aren't gained in the production and transfer of energies from the source to the end use, all we are doing is switching from oil to nat gas and coal - maybe nuclear. So, I don't see the solution from electric cars even if batteries were 10 times better considering our current technology with electric power generation.

That just leads me to the next problem. It seems we are decades away from solar cell or other solar power efficiencies that are needed to make solar feasable. It's the same problem as with the battery. We are not close, yet, to the technology we need to make the switch.

I think we are at least 40 years away from having the technology that will work at both ends. It all depends upon breakthroughs that come, it seems, at a slow pace.
 
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Quote from Sandybestdog:

OK that's getting a little beyond my technical knowledge. I would recommend reading the wikipedia article that explains it in detail. It's my understanding that it can send power to both.
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Good idea. From wikipedia:

"The Volt operates as a pure battery electric vehicle until its plug-in battery capacity drops to a predetermined threshold from full charge. From there its internal combustion engine powers an electric generator to extend the vehicle's range if needed.Once the engine is running in this extended range mode, it may at times be linked mechanically (via a clutch) to assist the traction motor in propelling the car in order to improve energy efficiency. The Volt's regenerative braking also contributes to the on-board electricity generation. ..."

Also:

"The Society of Automotive Engineers' (SAE) definition of a hybrid vehicle states that the vehicle shall have "two or more energy storage systems both of which must provide propulsion power, either together or independently."[11] General Motors has avoided the use of the term "hybrid" when describing its Voltec designs, even after the carmaker revealed that in some cases the combustion engine provided some assist at high speeds or to improve performance.[12] Instead General Motors describes the Volt as an electric vehicle equipped with a "range extending" gasoline powered internal combustion engine (ICE) as a genset and therefore dubbed the Volt an "Extended Range Electric Vehicle" or E-REV.[13][14] In a January 2011 interview, the Chevy Volt's Global Chief Engineer, Pamela Fletcher, referred to the Volt as "an electric car with extended range."[15]


According to the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) definitions, the Volt is a plug-in hybrid vehicle, due to the combination of an internal combustion engine and two electric motors, along with a battery that can accept off-board energy.[16] The Volt operates as a purely electric vehicle for the first 25 to 50 miles (40 to 80 km) in charge-depleting mode. When the battery capacity drops below a pre-established threshold from full charge, the vehicles enters charge-sustaining mode, and the Volt's control system will select the most optimally efficient drive mode to improve performance and boost high-speed efficiency."

So this thing is pretty complicated. It's mechanically complex, and apparently it's complicated to even describe it accurately.

I will concede it's an elegant engineering solution, as I assume it allows them to get by with a much smaller gas engine than a pure hybrid would require. Using the gas engine to generate electricity allows it to operate at its most efficient RPM range. Using it purely as an adjunct to the electric motors means it doesn't have to be very powerful. How it works out in practice, and how it will work out after a lot of hard miles of city driving is anybody's guess.

The good point is that you can do a short commute wihout having to use the gas engine at all. The downside is you probably don't want to try to cross the Rocky Mountains in the winter with it. Cold weather will sap the battery, and it's not clear to me how much power it has on gas mode alone.
 
I find this stuff interesting. Also from wikipedia:

"Technically the Voltec drivetrain has three power converting elements:[57]

Primary traction motor, provides good acceleration for driving at lower speeds, its maximum output of 111 kW setting the maximum output of the whole system.
Secondary motor/generator, assists the primary motor or works as generator capable of producing 54 kW.
Combustion engine of 63 kW power,[58] engaged when the batteries reach the predetermined threshold.
These units are connected via a planetary gear and electric clutches to provide power output for propulsion in four programmed operating modes:[57]

Single motor electric - The primary motor runs solely on battery power, maximum propulsion power is 111 kW.
Dual motor electric - At higher vehicle speeds the secondary motor engages over the planetary gear such that it reduces the speed of the primary motor. This facilitates higher efficiency and better mileage for the combined system, without increasing the maximum power.
Single motor extended - The battery reaches its minimum charge which triggers the combustion engine. This drives the secondary motor which is now used as a generator, via the charging electronics, to keep the minimum battery charging level. The primary motor can still provide its 111 kW for short acceleration, albeit not sustained.
Dual motor extended - The electric motors are used again in dual configuration with increased efficiency at higher speeds. Additionally the gasoline engine contributes propulsion power via the planetary gear. While power is drained from the battery the amount is less than in mode 2 for the same propulsion power, thus extending the range.
The drivetrain platform permits the Volt to operate as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors. The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid.
While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) and/or under hard acceleration) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors to drive the wheels, in which case the Volt operates as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid. After its all-electric range has been depleted, at speeds between 30 to 70 miles per hour (48 to 110 km/h), the Volt is programmed to select the most efficient drive mode, which improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.[16][59]"

The key thing here is that it will never recoup a full battery charge unless you plug it in and leave it for a long time. Not much good for road trips.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

I find this stuff interesting. Also from wikipedia:

"Technically the Voltec drivetrain has three power converting elements:[57]

Primary traction motor, provides good acceleration for driving at lower speeds, its maximum output of 111 kW setting the maximum output of the whole system.
Secondary motor/generator, assists the primary motor or works as generator capable of producing 54 kW.
Combustion engine of 63 kW power,[58] engaged when the batteries reach the predetermined threshold.
These units are connected via a planetary gear and electric clutches to provide power output for propulsion in four programmed operating modes:[57]

Single motor electric - The primary motor runs solely on battery power, maximum propulsion power is 111 kW.
Dual motor electric - At higher vehicle speeds the secondary motor engages over the planetary gear such that it reduces the speed of the primary motor. This facilitates higher efficiency and better mileage for the combined system, without increasing the maximum power.
Single motor extended - The battery reaches its minimum charge which triggers the combustion engine. This drives the secondary motor which is now used as a generator, via the charging electronics, to keep the minimum battery charging level. The primary motor can still provide its 111 kW for short acceleration, albeit not sustained.
Dual motor extended - The electric motors are used again in dual configuration with increased efficiency at higher speeds. Additionally the gasoline engine contributes propulsion power via the planetary gear. While power is drained from the battery the amount is less than in mode 2 for the same propulsion power, thus extending the range.
The drivetrain platform permits the Volt to operate as a pure battery electric vehicle until its battery capacity has been depleted to a defined level, at which time it commences to operate as a series hybrid design where the gasoline engine drives the generator, which keeps the battery at minimum level charge and provides power to the electric motors. The full charge of the battery is replenished only by loading it on the electrical grid.
While in this series mode at higher speeds and loads, (typically above 30 miles per hour (48 km/h) and/or under hard acceleration) the gasoline engine can engage mechanically to the output from the transmission and assist both electric motors to drive the wheels, in which case the Volt operates as a power-split or series-parallel hybrid. After its all-electric range has been depleted, at speeds between 30 to 70 miles per hour (48 to 110 km/h), the Volt is programmed to select the most efficient drive mode, which improves performance and boosts high-speed efficiency by 10 to 15 percent.[16][59]"

The key thing here is that it will never recoup a full battery charge unless you plug it in and leave it for a long time. Not much good for road trips.
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Fancy golf cart if you ask me.
 
Quote from 377OHMS:
At least you admit that the Volt isn't an electric vehicle. Honesty has to start somewhere.

The sales of the Volt will never even be enough to cover the development costs so there will always be a *huge* taxpayer subsidy. The people buying are leftist loons who believe anything they are told. Once the car has gone 25 miles it is just an inefficient gasoline powered GM pile of crap destined for the bone yard.
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You can call it whatever you, it doesn't change what it is and how it works.

The people buying are not leftist loons. Most people buying them are what are probably labeled "early adopters" or people who have done the math and find the numbers work for them. While I don't take polls of my customers, I would venture to say that most are Republicans. They're just a little more open minded, unlike you.

If the Volt cost $1billion to develop, they only need to sell 100,000 units to break even if they make $10,000 on each one(which is what the estimates suggest). They are almost 25% there in only 18 months.

Thousands upon thousands of actual, real life Volt owners including me can attest that they consistently get 35-40 miles on a charge, yet your single reference point to a 25 mile range is from someone who drove it one time and has been on a mission to destroy it. You really have a lot of hate that needs to come out.
 
Quote from mrbill:
I know very little about electric cars. They do have a great number of smart cars over here, and I'm not sure if they're electric or not. I did see a movie about the demise of the the electric car from GM years ago, can't recall the name, where they destroyed a whole bunch of these cars.

If the Volt is not a good design, as 377 has shown, then I wonder why GM would have wasted all that money on the earlier technology? If Sandybestdog is selling them, then I assume he knows as much about them as a regular car salesperson knows about regular gas cars.

My point is, are we hating the Volt just because of Government Motors, as described by some? Is it possible it's a decent car looking for Americans to adjust their thinking? Ideas and thoughts anyone?
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The EV1 was really a prototype car. It was never released on large scale like the Volt. They were only leased. When they decided to end the program, they destroyed them all, I suspect because of liability and maintenance concerns.

Does this answer your question as to why it's hated?

Blowout-thumb-700xauto-1906.jpg
 
Quote from pspr:
This should be obvious to all. We just don't have the battery know-how. Personally, I think we are further than 10 years away from a significantly better battery. For electric autos to be widely accepted we really need a battery that holds 5 or 10 times the energy in the same amount of space.

But, even then, if efficiencies aren't gained in the production and transfer of energies from the source to the end use, all we are doing is switching from oil to nat gas and coal - maybe nuclear. So, I don't see the solution from electric cars even if batteries were 10 times better considering our current technology with electric power generation.

That just leads me to the next problem. It seems we are decades away from solar cell or other solar power efficiencies that are needed to make solar feasable. It's the same problem as with the battery. We are not close, yet, to the technology we need to make the switch.

I think we are at least 40 years away from having the technology that will work at both ends. It all depends upon breakthroughs that come, it seems, at a slow pace.
More...
See that's the thing. You have to develop and sell the imperfect technologies before they can be refined into more cost effective ones. If nobody bought overpriced computers in the 80's, we wouldn't have the computing power that we have today.

A car that goes on complete battery for 38 miles and then switches to gas at 37 MPG, is a pretty good start. Also, depending on tax credits, solar energy has come down in price to a point that it's about a 5-7 year payback. Solar panels easily last 20-30 years. So if you make an initial investment, it will pay back in 5 years and the next 15 generate no cost, maintenance free electricity. Any business would consider that as a good investment.
 
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