Obama touts this as success
- Thread starter wildchild
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If people want to have an honest discussion why do they insist on using the Volt to bash Obama? To say only rich people who want to feel self righteous about being green drive it? To say that it's the Edsal and Yugo of the 21st century. How can a car that has one North American and European car of the year be a complete failure? These comments coming from people that most likely have never even driven it, let alone seen one. There is a legitimate discussion that can be made that electric cars should not be subsidized. Or that they are not practical. Argue it on the merits, not on what Fox News throws around as political one liners to score points with the base.
The Prius has no doubt been a great vehicle and because of its strong sales, the price has come down to a practical level. But haven't you noticed that Toyota is now following in Chevy's footsteps by making a vehicle that can at least partially be run by a battery that is recharged by electricity which is much cheaper than gas? The Prius plug in is brilliant in the fact that it can go the first 12 or so miles all on battery. After that it just runs like a normal Prius. This gets people in the habit of plugging in and managing their driving schedules. This gives the benefit of all electric driving but without the range anxiety that comes with a pure electric car. The Volt just does this on a broader scale.
If cost savings is your priority, you'll just have to run the numbers to see what is more beneficial for you. A Prius for $25k that gets 50 MPG, a Prius plug for $30.5k($33k-$2500 tax credit) that gets 12 electric miles and then 50 MPG, or a Volt for $32,495 ($39,995-$7500) that gets 38 miles electric and then 37 MPG.
With the Prius plug in, yes if you run solely on battery, it will be comparable to the Volt. I think there can be some debate about 40 miles being the correct range for the Volt but I think there is no debate that the the Prius's 12 mile range will constantly leave you needing to use gas, which must be factored into total cost. Also, even in electric mode, at 62 MPG, the Prius must use gas. There has been some debate but officially, while in extended range (gas) mode, the Volt's engine generator simply recharges the battery and then the battery powers the car. So there will be times when in gas mode that the engine is not running because there is a enough of a buffer in the battery to power the car at that moment.
The Volt isn't an electric car, it is a hybrid by definition.
The accepted range for the Volt documented repeatedly in video was 25 miles.
Untrue, there has not been any debate about the fact that the Volt's gasoline engine propels the car and and recharges the batteries at a tremendously slow rate making it a hybrid vehicle.
If the car had any redeeming value the US Government would not be forcing the DoD to purchase large numbers of Volts for their vehicle fleet which effectively is additional forced taxpayer subsidy.
Glad you are able to sell a good number of these cars and make a living but some of your pitch is downright unethical. Better hope there is no such thing as karma.
Ok, thanks for that. I'm not in the market for one, just to clear that up. I did see a Two Guys Garage show a while back that impressed me about the Prius' technology. I am a car guy but never paid much attention to it. My cousin has one and loves it though.
Now about the Volt. How can there possibly be any debate over whether or not the gas engine drives the wheels? I mean, either it does or it doesn't. I'm confused by your use of the qualifier "officially" in that regard. I don't see how it is subject to interpretation.
If I were running a car company, I thnk I might take hybrids in a different direction. Instead of emphasizing economy, I'd go for performance. You could have a sports car with a relatively small battery that would recharge off braking, like F1 KERS systems do. You would use the electric motor in conjunction with the gas engine when you needed high torque, like in accelration from a standstill. You could tune the gas engine for high HP and not worry about low speed torque because you would have the electric motor to fall back on. Think a Camaro with a smaller turbocharged V-6 putting out maybe 450 HP and an electric system that would give you a couple hundred footpounds of torque for short periods. What a beast.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/10/us-generalmotors-autos-volt-idUSBRE88904J20120910
"Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts. GM on Monday issued a statement disputing the estimates.
Cheap Volt lease offers meant to drive more customers to Chevy showrooms this summer may have pushed that loss even higher. There are some Americans paying just $5,050 to drive around for two years in a vehicle that cost as much as $89,000 to produce."
"Nearly two years after the introduction of the path-breaking plug-in hybrid, GM is still losing as much as $49,000 on each Volt it builds, according to estimates provided to Reuters by industry analysts and manufacturing experts. GM on Monday issued a statement disputing the estimates.
Cheap Volt lease offers meant to drive more customers to Chevy showrooms this summer may have pushed that loss even higher. There are some Americans paying just $5,050 to drive around for two years in a vehicle that cost as much as $89,000 to produce."
The Washington Post ran what i assume was the original Reuters article today. Theri costs calculations were a bit absurd, since they allocated the entire R&D cost to the number of cars sold already. That makes little sense.
A more reasonable analysis would be to allocate the costs over the anticipated production run, but that is a little hard to do gvien the lackluster sales.
This is a standard issue in any kind of cost accounting, whether for regulatory purposes, antitrust ,etc. In classical economics, the only meaningful costs are the marginal , ie costs of last unit of production, costs. The article quoted industry experts as estimating average production costs as $20-32,000 per unit. That's roughly double those of the standard Cruze.
It seems to me that Chevy faces a decision as to how they position this vehicle. By basing it on a cheap platform, the Cruze, they gave it a low end orientation only with a high end price. Big marketing mistake in my mind. They could cut the price dramatically and still cover the costs of production, which it seems to me would be a smart move, provided they actually want to sell these things. Maybe they are not all that intent on selling a lot of them however. They may fear they are not sorted out and they will face enormous warranty claims if they sell too many. who knows?
Perhaps Sandy has some input on this, but if they cut the price to $29,995, it seems to me it would get some attention, since there is the $7500 government subsidy on top of that.
The other alternative is to put the package in something more upscale, so they can attempt to justify the cost, maybe a Caddie.
A more reasonable analysis would be to allocate the costs over the anticipated production run, but that is a little hard to do gvien the lackluster sales.
This is a standard issue in any kind of cost accounting, whether for regulatory purposes, antitrust ,etc. In classical economics, the only meaningful costs are the marginal , ie costs of last unit of production, costs. The article quoted industry experts as estimating average production costs as $20-32,000 per unit. That's roughly double those of the standard Cruze.
It seems to me that Chevy faces a decision as to how they position this vehicle. By basing it on a cheap platform, the Cruze, they gave it a low end orientation only with a high end price. Big marketing mistake in my mind. They could cut the price dramatically and still cover the costs of production, which it seems to me would be a smart move, provided they actually want to sell these things. Maybe they are not all that intent on selling a lot of them however. They may fear they are not sorted out and they will face enormous warranty claims if they sell too many. who knows?
Perhaps Sandy has some input on this, but if they cut the price to $29,995, it seems to me it would get some attention, since there is the $7500 government subsidy on top of that.
The other alternative is to put the package in something more upscale, so they can attempt to justify the cost, maybe a Caddie.
12:30 PM J.D. Power reports that car buyers bought or leased twice as many hybrid and electric vehicles this August than a year ago. The increase of demand in the market is attributed to high fuel prices and the revitalized inventory of Japanese automakers following last year's natural disasters
Oh if I was here trying to sell cars, I would be a pretty bad car salesman.
Originally, GM said that while in extended range mode, the gas generator was used simply to recharge the battery and the car would continue to pull power from the battery just as it does in normal battery mode, thus making the car at all times electric. Later they admitted that in fact during periods of hard acceleration or while at speeds above 60 MPH, the generator could send power directly to the wheels, which has had 377OHMS all twisted up for months. It doesn't matter which is the case, just about bottom line results and those are that the Volt has the highest rated gas mileage of any car with an engine in it.
I think for everyday driving, the whole point of hybrids and electric vehicles is fuel efficiency. Paying a higher price for more power would negate the purpose of it in the first place. However I can see sports car going that route in the future. I would think that in a drag race between the Volt and a V6 Camaro, for the first 100 feet or so, the Volt would probably be leading until the Camaro caught up with pure horsepower.
I got the opportunity to go to the 24 Hours of Lemans in June. The big thing this year were the hybrid cars that were racing. They are able to brake and accelerate a little quicker.