MJ, the greatest ever....

[KymarFye]

"Kobe... is an ugly E.T. faced prima donna is compared to M.J., but that is ridiculous---we saw what Kobe could do without Shaq early this year---case closed"

Coach says he wants Kobe to score more, get started earlier - result: Kobe goes on the greatest offensive tear by any player in the NBA in a decade, if not since Wilt, and almost singlehandedly moves the Lakers into playoff position. If you haven't been able to enjoy it, then you're a pathetically twisted Laker-hater, not a basketball fan.

A couple weeks ago, he had 51 against Denver by the 3rd Quarter, and didn't play the 4th. He could easily have ended up with 70. In the last week, he played 53 minutes of a double overtime game on a bum leg, goes over 50, and leads the Shaq-less Lakers over the Rockets and the desperately hyped Yao Ming (who received a picturesque Kobe facial for his efforts, and looked like a Chinese Sean Bradley). He came back the next day, a back to back on the road, and led the Lakers, again Shaqless, over Utah - and the Utah crowd was cheering him, just as almost all the other road crowds have been cheering him on and spending a lot more time buzzing about his play than about anything done by any of their own players. Last night at Staples, the game looked to be heading down to the wire, until Kobe hit a 3, went to the foul line for 2 more and put the Lakers up for good. Portland pulled one of its usual collapses, and Kobe got his now-expected 40 on the last shot.

Earlier this year, he was asked to be more of playmaker: Result, triple-doubles night in and night out. It often seemed like he was the only Laker playing. The team had a horrible start, but he virtually singlehandedly kept the games close. Later in the season, Kobe gets hot from behind the arc: Result - records for most consecutive 3-pointers and most 3-pointers in a game...

If the season ended today, Kobe would be MVP - case closed. If he keeps on playing anywhere near this level, the voting won't even be close.

If Kobe had been playing on some non-contender without the Most Dominant Ever sucking up the oxygen, he'd have been putting up MJ-like numbers all the way along, at a younger age, and in a league where defense has caught up a lot more with offense than when Jordan was starting out. I won't try to make a case that Kobe's better than MJ - though objective observers have argued that he's further along at this stage of his career than MJ was at a similar stage. Kobe's only 24, and already has three championships under his belt - give him another 16 years, and then we'll see what kind of career he's had - especially if he avoids injury and also avoids idiotic diversions like trying to play baseball.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from KymarFye:



Coach says he wants Kobe to score more, get started earlier - result: Kobe goes on the greatest offensive tear by any player in the NBA in a decade, if not since Wilt, and almost singlehandedly moves the Lakers into playoff position. If you haven't been able to enjoy it, then you're a pathetically twisted Laker-hater, not a basketball fan.

A couple weeks ago, he had 51 against Denver by the 3rd Quarter, and didn't play the 4th. He could easily have ended up with 70. In the last week, he played 53 minutes of a double overtime game on a bum leg, goes over 50, and leads the Shaq-less Lakers over the Rockets and the desperately hyped Yao Ming (who received a picturesque Kobe facial for his efforts, and looked like a Chinese Sean Bradley). He came back the next day, a back to back on the road, and led the Lakers, again Shaqless, over Utah - and the Utah crowd was cheering him, just as almost all the other road crowds have been cheering him on and spending a lot more time buzzing about his play than about anything done by any of their own players. Last night at Staples, the game looked to be heading down to the wire, until Kobe hit a 3, went to the foul line for 2 more and put the Lakers up for good. Portland pulled one of its usual collapses, and Kobe got his now-expected 40 on the last shot.

Earlier this year, he was asked to be more of playmaker: Result, triple-doubles night in and night out. It often seemed like he was the only Laker playing. The team had a horrible start, but he virtually singlehandedly kept the games close. Later in the season, Kobe gets hot from behind the arc: Result - records for most consecutive 3-pointers and most 3-pointers in a game...

If the season ended today, Kobe would be MVP - case closed. If he keeps on playing anywhere near this level, the voting won't even be close.

If Kobe had been playing on some non-contender without the Most Dominant Ever sucking up the oxygen, he'd have been putting up MJ-like numbers all the way along, at a younger age, and in a league where defense has caught up a lot more with offense than when Jordan was starting out. I won't try to make a case that Kobe's better than MJ - though objective observers have argued that he's further along at this stage of his career than MJ was at a similar stage. Kobe's only 24, and already has three championships under his belt - give him another 16 years, and then we'll see what kind of career he's had - especially if he avoids injury and also avoids idiotic diversions like trying to play baseball. [/B]

Further along? Tendonitis in his knees at age 24, I would say he is further along.

No doubt, as of today, Kobe is the MVP.

However when people use the word greatness? Not yet.

It is very hard to compare leagues and generations.

Could Kobe really do as well today, if he were trying to drive the lane against the "Bad Boys" of Detroit during their reign of terror? You know Rodman and Lambier would have been waiting for him. How about going up against the ugly Knicks of Riley's era?

Fact is, that scoring is up, up big time this year. Look at the rule changes, look at the watered down league, etc.

MJ was so dominant in his time frame as to dwarf those others who were called "superstar." Tracy still leads the league in scoring.

Kobe is a nice guard, an all star, but his defensive skills are no where near MJ's during his period, and enough with age discussions, Kobe has been in the league how many years? MJ did some time in the college ranks, remember? So lets compare Kobe to where Mike was after playing in the league in the same number of years. Let's take Shaq out of the picture and put in the cast of the Bulls.

It is a joke. Mashburn goes off for 50 last night, Tracy for 52, and you are gonna tell me that it isn't a scorer's league right now, and defense is not being played?

Kobe would never take the task of guarding the best scorer on the other team, as they need his offensive skills. MJ relished the chance to guard the best player on the other team, and stuff it in his face.

Time will tell whether or not Kobe deserves the mantle being thrust on him, but I think the jury is out. We will see what Le Bron has to say about it....

If I were to start a team around one player right now, it wouldn't be Kobe, it would be Tim Duncan.

By the way, MJ hit the game winning shot last night...at age 40!

p.s. Those two fouls on Yao were not fouls. They were gifts from the same officials who gave the Lakers the title last year in the Sactown series.

David Stern is crapping in his pants at the thought of not having the Lakers in the playoffs, and he will make sure they get in.

 

[KymarFye]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



Further along? Tendonitis in his knees at age 24, I would say he is further along.

No doubt, as of today, Kobe is the MVP.

]

I agree the tendonitis is worrisome. Good thing Kobe's working on his outside game - in addition to setting new single-game records, he's hitting almost 40% of his 3's this year. Supposedly, it was his "weakness."

However when people use the word greatness? Not yet.

That's one thing great players do - always improve whatever part of their game they need to. Do what's asked of them. Make the other guys better. Win. Kobe's got 3 championships, has set some records, by age 24. If for some reason he had to retire today, it would be a tragedy of unfulfilled potential, but he'd still be remembered as one of the greats, and one of the finest all-around talents ever to play.

It is very hard to compare leagues and generations.

Agreed, without a doubt.

Could Kobe really do as well today, if he were trying to drive the lane against the "Bad Boys" of Detroit during their reign of terror? You know Rodman and Lambier would have been waiting for him. How about going up against the ugly Knicks of Riley's era?

Yeah - it would be ugly. Though I'm not sure what would be uglier - what the Bad Boys tried, or how much Jordan-like special protection the refs were required to give to Kobe. But what would be even uglier would be what happened to Laimbeer if he tried his old act with Shaq around.

Fact is, that scoring is up, up big time this year. Look at the rule changes, look at the watered down league, etc.

It's up - but it's still around 10 - 15% below the average during the '80s. True, the league is watered-down. On the other hand, we've had twenty more years of kids, like Kobe, being handed a basketball before they could walk, improved conditioning, everyone bigger...

MJ was so dominant in his time frame as to dwarf those others who were called "superstar."

Hey, just to be clear: I do think MJ was the greatest. I just didn't like the way you ragged on Kobe: IMO he's the greatest now.

Tracy still leads the league in scoring.

Barely - and Kobe's near the top in steals, and way ahead of TMAC in rebounds, assists, and minutes played. Orlando's on the decline, and may not even make the playoffs... in the East. THey may not even crack .500.

Let's take Shaq out of the picture and put in the cast of the Bulls.

Then Kobe leads the league in scoring by far. The team makes the playoffs, but never gets a champeenship until they get a Pippen and Rodman at peak levels, and a Paxton and a Kerr and an Armstrong and a Cartwright playin their roles right - and a Jackson.

Kobe would never take the task of guarding the best scorer on the other team, as they need his offensive skills.

That's not accurate.

Time will tell whether or not Kobe deserves the mantle being thrust on him, but I think the jury is out. We will see what Le Bron has to say about it....

Maybe... who knows?

If I were to start a team around one player right now, it wouldn't be Kobe, it would be Tim Duncan.

Oh, definitely - if your goal is to put your whole town to sleep with the most boring and sullen player ever to win MVP.

They were gifts from the same officials who gave the Lakers the title last year in the Sactown series.

Yeah, people have been repeating that one for so long, I guess it's become the "truth." If you look at the whole series, rather than just a couple plays in one quarter, you could go either way on the officiating. But who cares? Losers whine about the officiating. The Lakers had scoreboard, and, if you're going to beat the champs, you're not going to do it on foul calls. You better knock 'em out

David Stern is crapping in his pants at the thought of not having the Lakers in the playoffs, and he will make sure they get in.

Stern's not worried. Kobe's got the team in playoff position already. Stern probably feels just fine to see things looking more competitive. In the meantime, the Lakers have the two best players - even at only 75%, Shaq is still the second best player in the league, and the best guy to have in the playoffs.

That said, it hasn't looked like the Lakers' year this year, but we'll have to see where things stand when the playoffs start. Longer term, health always adds elements of unpredictability, but it's likely that the Lakers will be better next year, maybe a lot better.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

TMAC has weakness in his game, he is a George Gervin or Dominique Wilkins type.

Shaq is not the best player any more, not unless he is healthy and motivated.

I will still take Duncan to build a team around right now. Take Duncan and plug in Jason Kidd, you have a championship team.

Jury is out on whether or not Shaq Daddy returns next year. He is not healing properly, he is fat, and offseason he gets fatter, putting pressure on his foot. He needs a year or more off from the game. I think if they win 4th, and Jackson retires, Shaq is done....

Then we will see what Kobe really is all about, won't we? Kobe's got 3 championships with Shaq, we will see how many he gets without the big fella.

Probably the best way to imagine who is the best player, is to imagine a team and swap players.

Would the Lakers have won their 3 with MJ and not Kobe? Would the bulls have won with Kobe and not MJ?

Would the Celtics have won with Wilt and not Russell?

Would the Celtics have won with Magic, and the Lakers with Bird?

Interesting questions to while away the hours between trades.

Some stats:


Steals:

1 Allen Iverson, PHI 54 42.4 139 2.57 2.92 185 3.43 100 0.75 1.39
2 Doug Christie, SAC 54 35.5 138 2.56 3.46 104 1.93 130 1.33 1.06
3 Ron Artest, IND 47 34.4 108 2.30 3.21 100 2.13 168 1.08 0.64
4 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 41.7 120 2.22 2.56 203 3.76 138 0.59 0.87
5 Jason Kidd, NJN 54 36.5 117 2.17 2.85 195 3.61 95 0.60 1.23


Assists:

1 Gary Payton, MIL 52 40.8 457 8.8 131 2.5 10.3 3.49
2 Jason Kidd, NJN 54 36.5 453 8.4 195 3.6 11.0 2.32
3 S. Marbury, PHO 54 40.2 443 8.2 187 3.5 9.8 2.37
4 John Stockton, UTH 54 28.0 415 7.7 119 2.2 13.2 3.49
5 J. Tinsley, IND 52 31.1 390 7.5 141 2.7 11.6 2.77
6 J. Williams, MEM 47 31.4 350 7.4 102 2.2 11.4 3.43
7 Andre Miller, LAC 51 37.9 371 7.3 153 3.0 9.2 2.42
8 Jason Terry, ATL 53 37.5 373 7.0 168 3.2 9.0 2.22
9 Steve Nash, DAL 55 32.5 383 7.0 128 2.3 10.3 2.99
10 Eric Snow, PHI 54 38.9 370 6.9 139 2.6 8.5 2.66
11 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 41.7 341 6.3 203 3.8 7.3 1.68

Field Goal Percentages:

1 S. O'Neal, LAL 39 25.8 9.8 17.5 382 684 .558 382 684 .558 1.47 .558
2 P.J. Brown, NOR 56 10.6 4.0 7.4 222 412 .539 222 411 .540 1.44 .539
3 Yao Ming, HOU 54 13.4 4.8 9.4 261 505 .517 261 504 .518 1.44 .517
4 A. Kirilenko, UTH 52 12.2 3.9 7.5 201 390 .515 178 320 .556 1.63 .545
5 Brad Miller, IND 54 14.4 5.0 9.7 270 526 .513 266 511 .521 1.48 .517
6 Matt Harpring, UTH 52 18.5 7.0 13.8 365 716 .510 318 607 .524 1.34 .543
7 R. Jefferson, NJN 54 15.1 5.5 10.8 297 583 .509 292 565 .517 1.40 .514
8 R. Nesterovic, MIN 56 10.9 5.1 9.9 283 556 .509 283 554 .511 1.10 .509
9 Pau Gasol, MEM 53 18.4 6.5 12.7 342 674 .507 341 665 .513 1.45 .508
10 Brian Grant, MIA 54 9.8 4.0 8.1 218 436 .500 218 436 .500 1.21 .500
11 Elton Brand, LAC 51 18.4 7.1 14.3 363 727 .499 363 726 .500 1.29 .499
12 Nene Hilario, DEN 54 9.6 3.7 7.5 202 406 .498 202 403 .501 1.28 .498
13 Kevin Garnett, MIN 56 22.9 8.8 17.8 492 994 .495 473 940 .503 1.29 .505
14 Kurt Thomas, NYK 54 14.4 6.4 13.1 347 707 .491 346 705 .491 1.10 .492
15 Bobby Jackson, SAC 34 18.1 7.0 14.2 237 483 .491 182 336 .542 1.28 .548
16 Tim Duncan, SAS 54 23.4 8.8 18.0 473 971 .487 469 956 .491 1.30 .489
17 K. Van Horn, PHI 53 16.6 6.5 13.3 342 705 .485 291 570 .511 1.25 .521
18 John Stockton, UTH 54 11.4 4.0 8.3 217 450 .482 195 391 .499 1.36 .507
19 C. Cheaney, UTH 54 8.4 3.9 8.1 210 436 .482 201 416 .483 1.03 .492
20 Michael Redd, MIL 54 14.8 5.5 11.6 298 625 .477 185 371 .499 1.28 .567
21 S. Abdur-Rahim, ATL 53 20.0 6.9 14.6 364 774 .470 350 730 .479 1.37 .479
22 D. Marshall, CHI 56 14.1 5.7 12.1 317 675 .470 298 626 .476 1.17 .484
23 R. Wallace, POR 47 18.7 7.0 15.0 331 706 .469 258 505 .511 1.24 .521
24 J. O'Neal, IND 51 19.8 7.5 16.1 384 820 .468 382 810 .472 1.23 .470
25 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 53 23.5 8.2 17.6 437 934 .468 355 709 .501 1.33 .512
26 P. Stojakovic, SAC 46 19.0 6.9 14.8 319 682 .468 211 412 .512 1.28 .547
27 Chris Webber, SAC 41 23.0 9.8 21.1 403 864 .466 402 852 .472 1.09 .467
28 Steve Nash, DAL 55 17.8 6.3 13.6 345 749 .461 278 588 .473 1.31 .505
29 A. Stoudemire, PHO 55 13.2 4.6 9.9 251 545 .461 250 540 .463 1.33 .461
30 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 30.6 11.0 23.9 594 1292 .460 518 1098 .472 1.28 .489

Turnover Leaders:

1 Steve Francis, HOU 54 41.3 216 4.0 4.6 1.50 0.43
2 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 41.7 203 3.8 4.3 1.68 0.59
3 G. Robinson, ATL 49 37.8 183 3.7 4.7 0.78 0.34

Double Doubles:

1 Kevin Garnett, MIN 56 40.4 22.9 13.0 5.6 1.4 1.6 45 3
2 Tim Duncan, SAS 54 39.7 23.4 12.8 3.9 0.7 2.9 38 0
3 Elton Brand, LAC 51 40.1 18.4 11.2 2.4 1.1 2.5 37 1
4 J. O'Neal, IND 51 37.5 19.8 10.5 2.2 0.8 2.3 29 1
5 Chris Webber, SAC 41 39.3 23.0 10.5 5.5 1.6 1.6 27 3
Troy Murphy, GSW 55 33.2 11.9 10.4 1.4 0.9 0.3 27 0
7 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 53 38.7 23.5 9.8 2.8 1.4 1.2 26 0
8 S. O'Neal, LAL 39 37.7 25.8 10.6 3.4 0.6 2.3 24 0
Shawn Marion, PHO 54 41.8 21.6 9.5 2.2 2.1 1.2 24 0
10 D. Marshall, CHI 56 30.8 14.1 9.4 1.5 1.3 1.1 22 0
11 Gary Payton, MIL 52 40.8 20.8 4.8 8.8 1.8 0.2 21 0
A. Stoudemire, PHO 55 31.5 13.2 9.3 0.9 0.7 0.9 21 0
13 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 41.7 30.6 7.1 6.3 2.2 0.9 20

3 point shooting percentages:

NAME GP PPG 3PM 3PA 3PM 3PA 3P% 2PM 2PA 2P% PPS* FG%
1 Bruce Bowen, SAS 54 7.0 1.2 2.6 66 139 .475 77 165 .467 1.24 .579
2 Wesley Person, MEM 37 10.0 1.6 3.4 59 126 .468 69 161 .429 1.29 .549
3 Michael Redd, MIL 54 14.8 2.1 4.7 113 254 .445 185 371 .499 1.28 .567
4 David Wesley, NOR 57 17.1 2.0 4.5 113 259 .436 251 560 .448 1.19 .513
5 Matt Harpring, UTH 52 18.5 0.9 2.1 47 109 .431 318 607 .524 1.34 .543
6 Allan Houston, NYK 54 22.1 2.2 5.4 121 289 .419 297 661 .449 1.26 .504
7 Steve Nash, DAL 55 17.8 1.2 2.9 67 161 .416 278 588 .473 1.31 .505
8 Tony Delk, BOS 47 10.7 2.1 5.1 99 239 .414 78 173 .451 1.22 .550
9 L. Harris, NJN 54 11.6 0.8 1.8 41 99 .414 191 448 .426 1.14 .462
10 Jon Barry, DET 54 7.0 1.1 2.6 57 139 .410 71 153 .464 1.30 .536
11 Steve Kerr, SAS 51 4.7 0.7 1.8 38 93 .409 52 102 .510 1.22 .559
12 Charlie Ward, NYK 45 7.5 1.6 3.8 70 172 .407 50 119 .420 1.16 .533
13 Brent Barry, SEA 46 9.5 1.5 3.6 67 165 .406 87 173 .503 1.29 .555
14 Eddie Jones, MIA 42 18.5 2.0 5.0 85 210 .405 178 408 .436 1.26 .494
15 P. Stojakovic, SAC 46 19.0 2.3 5.9 108 270 .400 211 412 .512 1.28 .547
Doug Christie, SAC 54 10.4 1.1 2.7 58 145 .400 137 261 .525 1.38 .552
E. Piatkowski, LAC 34 9.4 1.3 3.2 44 110 .400 69 125 .552 1.35 .574
18 Steve Francis, HOU 54 22.6 1.2 2.9 63 159 .396 341 771 .442 1.31 .468
19 Ray Allen, SEA 47 21.3 2.6 6.6 123 311 .395 228 492 .463 1.25 .514
20 Pat Garrity, ORL 56 11.0 2.0 5.0 111 281 .395 107 239 .448 1.18 .526
21 Howard Eisley, NYK 54 8.7 1.5 3.8 81 206 .393 85 188 .452 1.19 .524
22 Shane Battier, MEM 49 8.3 0.9 2.2 42 107 .393 108 204 .529 1.31 .550
23 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 30.6 1.4 3.6 76 194 .392 518 1098 .472 1.28 .489

Free Throw Percentages:

1 Allan Houston, NYK 54 22.1 4.4 4.8 238 260 .915
2 Ray Allen, SEA 47 21.3 3.8 4.1 178 195 .913
3 Steve Nash, DAL 55 17.8 4.1 4.5 223 245 .910
4 Troy Hudson, MIN 53 14.1 2.6 2.9 140 155 .903
5 Earl Boykins, GSW 41 10.1 2.9 3.3 120 135 .889
6 Reggie Miller, IND 43 13.9 3.5 4.0 151 171 .883
7 Jason Terry, ATL 53 17.0 3.2 3.6 169 192 .880
8 C. Billups, DET 47 13.8 3.7 4.3 176 201 .876
G. Robinson, ATL 49 21.0 3.6 4.1 176 201 .876
10 P.J. Brown, NOR 56 10.6 2.7 3.1 149 172 .866
11 M. Finley, DAL 55 20.1 3.0 3.5 167 193 .865
12 Bobby Jackson, SAC 34 18.1 2.6 3.0 87 101 .861
13 D. Armstrong, ORL 56 9.9 2.2 2.6 124 144 .861
14 J. Mashburn, NOR 57 21.6 3.8 4.5 218 254 .858
15 J. Stackhouse, WAS 45 22.1 6.4 7.5 290 338 .858
16 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL 53 23.5 5.5 6.4 289 337 .858
17 Sam Cassell, MIL 51 19.3 5.2 6.0 264 308 .857
18 Eric Snow, PHI 54 12.6 3.4 4.0 185 216 .856
19 Jalen Rose, CHI 56 23.2 5.2 6.1 293 343 .854
20 Shawn Marion, PHO 54 21.6 3.3 3.9 178 209 .852
21 W. Szczerbiak, MIN 26 16.0 3.3 3.9 86 101 .851
22 D. Anderson, POR 48 14.6 3.5 4.1 169 199 .849
23 P. Stojakovic, SAC 46 19.0 2.8 3.3 128 151 .848
24 Mike Miller, MEM 50 16.6 2.5 3.0 127 150 .847
25 Rashard Lewis, SEA 50 17.8 3.9 4.6 194 230 .843
26 C. Mobley, HOU 46 17.6 3.5 4.2 163 194 .840
27 L. Harris, NJN 54 11.6 2.2 2.7 121 145 .834
28 Jason Kidd, NJN 54 19.6 4.5 5.4 241 289 .834
29 Kobe Bryant, LAL 54 30.6 7.2 8.6 388 466


Best player in the game? Number 2 in scoring and turnovers?

No freaking way he is the best player in the game.

Check the stats, Garnett and Duncan are both superior on the whole to Kobe, who is mostly one dimensional.

 

[KymarFye]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



Probably the best way to imagine who is the best player, is to imagine a team and swap players.

Would the Lakers have won their 3 with MJ and not Kobe? Would the bulls have won with Kobe and not MJ?

Would the Celtics have won with Wilt and not Russell?

Would the Celtics have won with Magic, and the Lakers with Bird?

Interesting questions to while away the hours between trades.

Answers: Absolutely. Probably with the mature Kobe - whom we may only be seeing now - but we don't know yet whether Kobe will turn out to be as durable as MJ, another key factor in MJ's greatestness. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Damn - you're making me recall just how great the Laker-Celtic match-ups were in the '80s. Don't know if any pro sport has ever had a better sustained rivalry. Were some pretty good other teams around, too, to keep things tough. Still, there's promise in the future - things could get killer-competitive in the coming years: Lot of possibilities in the West. What I think everyone would love though would be if at least one East Coast team could get scary good.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from KymarFye:



Answers: Absolutely. Probably with the mature Kobe - whom we may only be seeing now - but we don't know yet whether Kobe will turn out to be as durable as MJ, another key factor in MJ's greatestness. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Damn - you're making me recall just how great the Laker-Celtic match-ups were in the '80s. Don't know if any pro sport has ever had a better sustained rivalry. Were some pretty good other teams around, too, to keep things tough. Still, there's promise in the future - things could get killer-competitive in the coming years: Lot of possibilities in the West. What I think everyone would love though would be if at least one East Coast team could get scary good.

See stat update.

Jerry West he aint.

 

[KymarFye]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



Best player in the game? Number 2 in scoring and turnovers?

No freaking way he is the best player in the game.

Check the stats, Garnett and Duncan are both superior on the whole to Kobe, who is mostly one dimensional.

Actually, I think the stats make a good argument for Kobe, and I think you way underrate his defense, his playmaking abilities, and his ability, when called on, to get his own shot. That he's so often forced to take the desperation shot when time is running out also skews his shooting pctgs. Don't know if you have the stats on triple-doubles - I suspect Kobe probably still leads the league on that one, unless Kidd's snuck in a few when I wasn't looking.

And I like Garnett a lot. Don't know if he's "better" than Duncan, but I know I'd rather have him, just for the fun of it - the game IS entertainment, after all. On that note, Kobe gives you, on average, at least three highlight plays a game. I'm not sure if Duncan's ever had one in his career - maybe a last-second shot or two somewhere along the line...

You're entitled to your opinion. You were big enough to admit Kobe's having an MVP season - quite a reversal from your earlier post. I think if you didn't hate the Lakers so much, you'd at least admit the who's-best? question is close enough not to deserve a "no freakin way."

Was it just last night, or has Rasheed Wallace's game declined since he started approaching sanity?

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from KymarFye:



Actually, I think the stats make a good argument for Kobe, and I think you way underrate his defense, his playmaking abilities, and his ability, when called on, to get his own shot. That he's so often forced to take the desperation shot when time is running out also skews his shooting pctgs. Don't know if you have the stats on triple-doubles - I suspect Kobe probably still leads the league on that one, unless Kidd's snuck in a few when I wasn't looking.

And I like Garnett a lot. Don't know if he's "better" than Duncan, but I know I'd rather have him, just for the fun of it - the game IS entertainment, after all. On that note, Kobe gives you, on average, at least three highlight plays a game. I'm not sure if Duncan's ever had one in his career - maybe a last-second shot or two somewhere along the line...

You're entitled to your opinion. You were big enough to admit Kobe's having an MVP season - quite a reversal from your earlier post. I think if you didn't hate the Lakers so much, you'd at least admit the who's-best? question is close enough not to deserve a "no freakin way."

Was it just last night, or has Rasheed Wallace's game declined since he started approaching sanity?

Sheed is on anti depressant drugs, controlls his temper, reduces his intentisy and game.

I said, "No doubt, as of today, Kobe is the MVP." Let's see how we finish the season.

I don't know what stats you are looking at, but his assist to turnover ratio, shooting percentages both suck.

MVP is often a popularity contest. If you asked me who is the best player in the league, look at the stats overall.

Kobe is scoring a lot....BECAUSE HE IS TAKING SO MANY FREAKING SHOTS!!!

If you can be objective, his stats aint all that.

Go to:
http://www.nba.com/statistics

And compare overall stats to Tim Duncan.

Kobe is will end up 2nd, at best. Duncan is the real MVP, the best player in the game today.


TMAC had 52 at the end of the third quarter last night. Didn't even play the fourth quarter. Think he could have had 60 some?

No reversal, Kobe is still a Mike wannabe, and not in his league.

I am not interested in highlight plays. On that basis, you take Dominique over Duncan?

Triple doubles?

Kobe has 5 this season. The big O averaged a season of triple doubles.

 

[KymarFye]

Quote from OPTIONAL777:



I don't know what stats you are looking at, but his assist to turnover ratio, shooting percentages both suck.

Shooting pctg. not bad considering his position and role. He's been shooting around 50% during this streak he's on. He's in the top 5 in steals. Very high in rebounding and assists for an off-guard.

MVP is often a popularity contest. If you asked me who is the best player in the league, look at the stats overall.

I could say ask Mike Ditka about stats. Anyway, like I said, I don't see the stats the same way.

Duncan is the real MVP, the best player in the game today.

His power forward fundamentals on offense are unbelievably good. Otherwise, like I said, you're entitled to your opinion - but one reading of the stats isn't going to persuade me. It seems to me that, at least for the last few years, the Lakers and other teams have been able to shut him down when they had to. Not true for Shaq and Kobe.

I am not interested in highlight plays.

Oh, yeah - now I remember your TV commercial. You're the "two points is two points" guy? Funny about the Internet, I'd imagined you differently

On that basis, you take Dominique over Duncan?

I'd much rather go see a game with DW in his prime. If I were starting a team, sure, I'd rather have Duncan, but I'd try to surround him with guys whose play embodied joy and artistry. A guy like Walton, when healthy, was as good or better for a big man, fundamentally - and was a hundred times more fun.

 

[OPTIONAL777]

Quote from KymarFye:



Shooting pctg. not bad considering his position and role. He's been shooting around 50% during this streak he's on. He's in the top 5 in steals. Very high in rebounding and assists for an off-guard.



I could say ask Mike Ditka about stats. Anyway, like I said, I don't see the stats the same way.



His power forward fundamentals on offense are unbelievably good. Otherwise, like I said, you're entitled to your opinion - but one reading of the stats isn't going to persuade me. It seems to me that, at least for the last few years, the Lakers and other teams have been able to shut him down when they had to. Not true for Shaq and Kobe.



Oh, yeah - now I remember your TV commercial. You're the "two points is two points" guy? Funny about the Internet, I'd imagined you differently



I'd much rather go see a game with DW in his prime. If I were starting a team, sure, I'd rather have Duncan, but I'd try to surround him with guys whose play embodied joy and artistry. A guy like Walton, when healthy, was as good or better for a big man, fundamentally - and was a hundred times more fun.

What is most important? Individual scoring, team wins?

During the past month, Kobe set some individual scoring records.

The Spurs, with Tim Duncan at the helm (the Admiral is wahsed ashore) set a record for consecutive road wins.

Which is more important of a record? Think Duncan wouldn't trade his individual accomplishments and stats for winning road games?

I am not so sure about Kobe. I don't see him as one of the "fellas" who hangs with the rest of the gang.

I think you view Kobe with "purple and gold" colored glasses. I bet if you asked every general manager who they would pick, Kobe or Duncan, the consensus would be Duncan with KG a very close second based on his numbers this year. KG is having a monster season, and statistically, he is the MVP. Unfortunately, his team doesn't get the attention because they leading the league and they are in Minnesota, not LA or NYC, but his numbers are the best overall.

Kobe is wild, shoots too much, plays too much, and has too many turnovers.

The way to rate someone who handles the ball a lot, is turnover to assist ratio, and total turnovers.

TMAC scores more, turns the ball over a lot less, and plays less minutes.

Kobe, is overrated defensively. A.I. is a better defender along with Payton.

I believe your comments about preferring to view "highlight" films over substance, just proves the point that you are a casual basketball fan, not a purist, and not really knowledgeable of the game. All flash. Typical LA bandwagon type.

Hey, you view it as entertainment, I love the game. Big difference.

Look at the stats and rankings: