Minimum Wage ... Unbelivable?

[BrandNewTrader]

Quote from mschey:



Throughout this thread, I have stuck to three themes. Raising minimum wage will do very little to help the poor, we already do quite a bit to help the poor and it's not effective, we need to focus on empowerment, help them help themselves. Does this really sound foolish to you? What is so foolish about wanting to get meaningful results? The short answer is there is nothing foolish about it all.

Please. Those are indeed your themes, but all along the way you've made weak assertions and false analysis. Those may indeed be your themes and they are not foolish, but your understanding of the nature of government and general social and ethical principles is lacking. Like I said, stick to trading.

Calling me a newby is stupid. Calling me jealous is almost "insanity". I don't know you, why would I not like you or be jealous? You simply don't know what you're talking about and trying to talk like you do. Didn't you see me saying "Stick to trading." ??? I repeated this for a reason. You may be a great trader, but you don't know much about public government and the duty of civil service. Why is this so hard to understand? You repeatedly ignore this point COMPLETELY. STOP USING YOUR TRADING CREDENTIALS TO QUALIFY YOUR EMBARRASSING COMMENTS ABOUT SOCIETY, GOVERNMENT, AND ETHICS.

I apologize for using insults, I do. But can you blame me? Debating with people who make laughably false statements and then refuse to acknowledge or correct themselves is incredibly frustrating. It literally means that you aren't being rationale. You put the writing on the wall in your previous posts. Why don't you remove them?

Stick to trading.

 

[Bitstream]

Quote from mschey:

Who do you know that is earning minimum wage? Even temporary labor jobs pay more than minimum wage, heck the fast food places around my house pay their people $10 an hour.

I respect the fact that you want to help the poor, If you really wanted to do something to help the poor, if you were really passionate about it, you wouldn't be standing on the sidelines cheering for legislation that won't get the job done. You'd be in the game making decisions and taking meaningful actions. Seriously, do you really think that $320 a month will solve the problems for these people? If you want to help them, teach them how to move up, how to earn more, become more productive, and add value.

mschey, dont u think there'll always be the need for low quality jobs u and i wouldnt do even if forced to...dont we need some1 cleanin' public toilets and sweepin' the roads? u are makin' an argument for the poor to move up the ladder but if they do so whos left to take up their jobs...based on your arguments there would be nobody left to do the most disgustin' chores...why on earth have they got to be paid famen wages and not even have the luxury of eatin' red meat once a month...fuck it man it aint fair; i dont like to see children becomin' fatter and fatter cuz they cant afford decent food and the most basic education that theach 'em divorin' big macs 5days a week is gonna kill u. sheesh...man a raise in the min wage aint gonna make a dent in your income and neither on that of the superich, while the benefits for poor family are more than obvious...why be so egotisitcal?

 

[OldTrader]

Quote from BrandNewTrader:

Please. Those are indeed your themes, but all along the way you've made weak assertions and false analysis. Those may indeed be your themes and they are not foolish, but your understanding of the nature of government and general social and ethical principles is lacking. Like I said, stick to trading.

Calling me a newby is stupid. Calling me jealous is almost "insanity". I don't know you, why would I not like you or be jealous? You simply don't know what you're talking about and trying to talk like you do. Didn't you see me saying "Stick to trading." ??? I repeated this for a reason. You may be a great trader, but you don't know much about public government and the duty of civil service. Why is this so hard to understand? You repeatedly ignore this point COMPLETELY. STOP USING YOUR TRADING CREDENTIALS TO QUALIFY YOUR EMBARRASSING COMMENTS ABOUT SOCIETY, GOVERNMENT, AND ETHICS.

I apologize for using insults, I do. But can you blame me? Debating with people who make laughably false statements and then refuse to acknowledge or correct themselves is incredibly frustrating. It literally means that you aren't being rationale. You put the writing on the wall in your previous posts. Why don't you remove them?

Stick to trading.

And your "credentials" to comment about "society, government, and ethics" would be what?

By the way, I suspect you realize that being a trader does not disqualify one from having informed opinions regarding a variety of topics.

OldTrader

 

[madmunny]

Quote from Bitstream:

mschey, dont u think there'll always be the need for low quality jobs u and i wouldnt do even if forced to...dont we need some1 cleanin' public toilets and sweepin' the roads? u are makin' an argument for the poor to move up the ladder but if they do so whos left to take up their jobs...based on your arguments there would be nobody left to do the most disgustin' chores...why on earth have they got to be paid famen wages and not even have the luxury of eatin' red meat once a month...fuck it man it aint fair; i dont like to see children becomin' fatter and fatter cuz they cant afford decent food and the most basic education that theach 'em divorin' big macs 5days a week is gonna kill u. sheesh...man a raise in the min wage aint gonna make a dent in your income and neither on that of the superich, while the benefits for poor family are more than obvious...why be so egotisitcal?

Bitstream....the fact is raising minimum wage does put a dent in companies year end profits and so what do they do...they move their stores to places where they are not forced to pay these unfair tarrifs on their businesses. An Example....i live in Canada...we are made up of provinces not states....our most successful province just happens to be the one with the lowest tax rates...why is it the most successful? because all the large oil companies moved their head offices from saskatchewan to alberta because saskatchewan is a hugely socialist province and took the philosophy you are taking that these companies should pay more of thier profits to the poor......now in alberta Walmart....7-11.....tim hortons.....these companies have to pay their emplyees $20+ an hour because they cannot find people to staff their stores because alberta's economy is booming and everybody has a job....but if drive into either BC or Saskatchewan..these same companies pay their emplyees 7 bucks an hour...(now all you canadians dont be jumpin all over me saying its because alberta has oil....Sask has just as much oil as alberta but just look at the two provinces economical states)......this is why socialist ideas do not work in a free market....if you encourage enteupreners to create businesses so that they can become wealthy...they create jobs for the poorer part of the population......taxing and forcing these businesses to pay fee's/tarriffs or what ever you would like to call them to help support the poorer people in the society causes these newly created business to either not bother starting up....or moving....

MW is a wonderful idea in theory....however, it does nothing but slow down economic growth and in the end hurts everyone from the poor to the rich....the only people it doesnt hurt is the idiotic politicians that keep raising it just so that their constituents re-elect them.

 

[BrandNewTrader]

Quote from OldTrader:

And your "credentials" to comment about "society, government, and ethics" would be what?

By the way, I suspect you realize that being a trader does not disqualify one from having informed opinions regarding a variety of topics.

OldTrader

I don't have any "credentials" in this arena - aside from my liberal arts courses in school, personal interest in the topic and reading/discussions I participate in with friends on the topic. However, knowing alot of traders and alot of liberal arts types allow me to contrast my interactions and discussions with them and I've found that traders who are good at trading make the mistake of looking at non-financial issues through the same lens they use to view the market: This leads to a false sense of authority. There are myriad other reasons, but that's the main one and it's played out before our very eyes in this thread. Guys are saying dumb sht and not acknowledging their error. I made a mistake in another thread by saying an economist had a nobel prize when he didn't. It was my mistake and I cleared it up. People make mistakes, foolish people make mistakes but can't admit them or learn from them. Hence they repeat their mistakes.

I do realize that being a trader doesn't disqualify you from having a mutitude of talents or interests. I agree with this totally. But there's a known phenomenon amongst human beings in general, especially amongst the very smart and/or well educated. They think their success or ability in one area extends to other areas, regardless of the actual results of their participation. I'm not saying I'M an authority on these issues. But based on the things these guys are saying, it's obvious they aren't coming from a serious stance. They have an opinion based on false beliefs and stereotypes. The don't even think the working poor pay taxes! That's idiotic! Well, it's not idiotic, but it is ignorant. And it IS idiotic if you're saying that in a discussion like this and won't explain yourself.

It's like the kid with the soiled and smelly pants trying to tell his mother he DIDN'T make a boo boo in his pants...

 

[BrandNewTrader]

Quote from madmunny:

Bitstream....the fact is raising minimum wage does put a dent in companies year end profits and so what do they do...they move their stores to places where they are not forced to pay these unfair tarrifs on their businesses. An Example....i live in Canada...we are made up of provinces not states....our most successful province just happens to be the one with the lowest tax rates...why is it the most successful? because all the large oil companies moved their head offices from saskatchewan to alberta because saskatchewan is a hugely socialist province and took the philosophy you are taking that these companies should pay more of thier profits to the poor......now in alberta Walmart....7-11.....tim hortons.....these companies have to pay their emplyees $20+ an hour because they cannot find people to staff their stores because alberta's economy is booming and everybody has a job....but if drive into either BC or Saskatchewan..these same companies pay their emplyees 7 bucks an hour...(now all you canadians dont be jumpin all over me saying its because alberta has oil....Sask has just as much oil as alberta but just look at the two provinces economical states)......this is why socialist ideas do not work in a free market....if you encourage enteupreners to create businesses so that they can become wealthy...they create jobs for the poorer part of the population......taxing and forcing these businesses to pay fee's/tarriffs or what ever you would like to call them to help support the poorer people in the society causes these newly created business to either not bother starting up....or moving....

MW is a wonderful idea in theory....however, it does nothing but slow down economic growth and in the end hurts everyone from the poor to the rich....the only people it doesnt hurt is the idiotic politicians that keep raising it just so that their constituents re-elect them.

There's flaw in your logic. You're using the Canadian provinces as an example and what you say makes sense. Business left Sask b/c there was a friendlier business environment in the neighboring province. However, the minimum wage law is a national law and will be implemented nationwide. We already have jobs leaving the country - this may have an increasing effect on job flight, but the offsetting benefit is that the working poor will better be able to afford a lifestyle that is closer to or peaking above the poverty line. Do you undertstand that? People who work and work and find themselves living in poverty? Not because they do drugs and have too many babies (yes, this happens, but is it right to say this is the majority of lower income people? Going there opens up a whole other can of worms related to gender, race and class) but because the cost of living is very high in this country and basic essentials are also becoming more expensive. The minimum wage hasn't kep pace with inflation. However the salaries of the lawnakers have.

 

[trend_guy]

in a true capitalist structure, a "minimum wage" should not even exist. I think wages should be set by the marketplace, not by government policy.

 

[themarket]

Quote from trend_guy:

in a true capitalist structure, a "minimum wage" should not even exist. I think wages should be set by the marketplace, not by government policy.

Good day people!

Weighing back in here.

In response to the above, a "true capitalist structure" does not, has not and will never exist in the world. There will always be some form of gov't intervention to do whatever it is that they do to try to fix whatever it is they deem needs fixing. So much for "true capitalism".

Next...the point isn't whether or not a minimum wage is good or bad or capitalism or socialism or whatever "ism" is making the rounds that day. That debate is over. Has been for quite a while. Minimum wage exists...it is here...end of story...too late to do anything about it. The only thing a rational person can do is live with it. Making upward adjustments every once in awhile is now just a fact of life. Would we be better off without it? Maybe...maybe not. We'll never know.

 

[QQQBALL]

just becuase something exists, doent make a discussion of whether it is good or bad moot. min wage is price fixing, its a tax on consumers. should min wage workers be allowed to have children they cant support. should the min wage be on a sliding scale; higher for workers with children?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-quadruplets28jul28,0,931508.story?coll=la-home-headlines

With two teenage daughters at home and triplets still in diapers, Angela Magdaleno’s family overflowed from a one-bedroom apartment in South Los Angeles that they strained to afford.

Diapers had to be changed 15 times a day, feedings held every three hours. One triplet, 3-year-old Alfredo Jr., needed special attention because he was born with liquid on his brain and partially paralyzed.

Even simple events — like going to the store — required complex orchestration.

And that was before the quadruplets arrived. . .

Quote from themarket:

Good day people!

Weighing back in here.

In response to the above, a "true capitalist structure" does not, has not and will never exist in the world. There will always be some form of gov't intervention to do whatever it is that they do to try to fix whatever it is they deem needs fixing. So much for "true capitalism".

Next...the point isn't whether or not a minimum wage is good or bad or capitalism ....Maybe...maybe not. We'll never know.

 

[themarket]

Quote from QQQBALL:

just becuase something exists, doent make a discussion of whether it is good or bad moot. min wage is price fixing, its a tax on consumers. should min wage workers be allowed to have children they cant support. should the min wage be on a sliding scale; higher for workers with children?

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-quadruplets28jul28,0,931508.story?coll=la-home-headlines

With two teenage daughters at home and triplets still in diapers, Angela Magdaleno’s family overflowed from a one-bedroom apartment in South Los Angeles that they strained to afford.

Diapers had to be changed 15 times a day, feedings held every three hours. One triplet, 3-year-old Alfredo Jr., needed special attention because he was born with liquid on his brain and partially paralyzed.

Even simple events — like going to the store — required complex orchestration.

And that was before the quadruplets arrived. . .

And what does the plight of this poor woman have to do with minimum wage?

There are many very well off families that shouldn't have children either. Are you going to assign the task of monitoring that to our gov't as well? Good luck with that one.