Minimum Wage ... Unbelivable?

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

I've always considered myself a rather stauch Capitalist and politically, just left of Attilla the Hun. However, I find myself disagreeing more and more with the pure capitalist model. Sure, I realize that all of you 20-something mega rich traders on this site will probably take issue with what I am about to offer as an observation, but here goes.

Capitalism in its purest form, cannot work and is a most disagreeable philosophy in many ways. At least practiced the way that it is today in America.

If corporations would say " Aw shucks! I can't hire anyone for $4.00...maybe I'll raise it to 5...no 6...no 7...etc."then maybe I would reconsider. But given the moral integrity of our CEO's today, the likely course of action would not be to raise wages to a competitive level. But, rather to conspire and collude with other companies to KEEP the wages artificially LOW to eventually force people to work as virtual slaves.

Our companies are no longer run by men and women with a strong moral compass. They are run by people for whom enough is never enough. I'm paid 1 Billion dollars? Great! Now I want 2...then 3...then 4. Strip the pensions...lie to investors...ruin people's lives. I don't care...I WANT MORE!

I know most on here think it sounds tough to say piss on someone that doesn't have it as good as us. Its their fault. Maybe it is...maybe it isn't. Some people have done everything right and still got screwed. I suppose Ken Lay is a hero to some of the more twisted. But there is a thing called Karma, universal truths, do unto others...whatever you want to call it. It works. Don't ever doubt that.

One more thing. A society is judged by how well it cares for the weakest members of its society. We are not an enlightened people. We are barbarians.

Happy Trading.
 
themarket, I agree with your premise that without a moral compass there will be implementation problems, but this is not pure capitalism. If you read Adam Smith and others you will find that they all had strong moral belief structures and it was a given that people, while working for their own interests, would do so in a way that did not violate the moral laws of God. We certainly don't have a perfect system now, and the general decline in societal integrity over the last 100 years has given capitalism a black eye. But it is still the best system available and there are mechanisms in place (such as anti-trust laws) that keep unethical behavior in check. The free market, when allowed to truely be free, is the great equalizer and those that try to cheat the system will eventually be punished.

Using your example, EVERY CEO in EVERY industry would have to collude (illegally) to keep wages artificially low. This is because if just one industry did this, workers would simply move to the higher paying industries. The simple fact is that if a company can't find anyone willing to work for $5 an hour then they will have to pay more or go out of business. That is the free hand at work. Since those CEO's want to keep their jobs, they will hire workers for what the work is "worth", which is set by the supply and demand for labor in that industry, not some populist congressman.

Believe it or not, it really does work when the government stays out of the way and lets the market pick the winners and losers. I am not saying that no one ever gets hurt. Shoot, I have had dissapointments in my life related to the movement of capital from one industry to another. But rather than punish change that benifits society as a whole, I encourage it and I adapt to the market.

You would think with all of us being traders this would be common sense. We deal with these principles at an accelerated rate.
 
I agree with you, in principal, on several points. Your premise is that executives can be trusted to ultimately do the right thing for competition's sake, if for no other reason than to stay out of jail. I might be inclined to agree with you...20 years ago. But look what is happening. Do I have to list each corporate dabacle that has exploded in the face of not only workers but investors in the past decade? For God sake, Congress had to pass SarbOx just to try and slow down the slaughter.

If that's not enough, add on the option compensation scandal that is just about to blow the crap out of things. We haven't even scratched the surface of that one yet.

Not to mention the outright thieves in Congress.

Do you honestly mean to tell me that between the honorable gentlemen and ladies in Congress and in the upper echelons of business today, that any poor working bastard has any prayer of ever having ANYTHING in this society? I'm sorry...I don't but it anymore. I know how it's supposed to work. And its a delicately exquisite thing of beauty in concept. But, I fear that our society is no longer capable of being the caretaker of this gift. We no longer have what it takes.
 
Quote from themarket:


One more thing. A society is judged by how well it cares for the weakest members of its society. We are not an enlightened people. We are barbarians.

Happy Trading.
More...

Who judges society this way? Kim ju Jong ....or whatever his name is(this man should be shot, poisoned, assassinated or just carpet bomb the entire area to take him out.) Lenin, Marx? Their followers? Who cares what they think.


Let's see...what do we do for the poor? We give them free housing, we provide them free medical care that is better than most people who are productive(translate have a job and work for a living) receive. We also provide them a food program...On top of these government programs, there are many charities and organizations that tend to the poor and unfortunate on a daily basis. So please stop with your bullshit that we don't care for the weakest members of society. Throughout history, the poor have never been taken better care of than in our country...TODAY! If you really want to see what poor is, go visit some other countries, including the communist countries, and tell me who does a better job of caring for the poor.

If you really want to help the poor, help them help themselves. Teach them to fish, rather then give them a fish.
 
I'm not sure why I'm posting here b/c kiwi trader hit it on the head when he referred to oldtrader, but i guess i can't keep my mouth shut.

Why are you trying to apply economic theory and free market principles to the minimum wage? Free market principles are bullshit, any society needs rules and a basis on which to operate. If you want a FREE MARKET go to SOMALIA or IRAQ. christ. The government has an obligation to protect its weakest and most disadvantaged citizens (amongst other observations), businesses operating under the jurisdiction of that government have an obligation to follow the rules of government.

Please stop referring to immigrants who come to this country and are successful. You fools. The immigrants who come to this country are the MOST AMBITIOUS, MOTIVATED, AND HARDWORKING PEOPLE from their own countries. You don't think they have lazy people in India, S. Korea, Mexico, etc? Give me a fcking break.

It would do most of you good to remember that your focus is trading and markets, not philosophy and/or ethics. You should also remember that we live in America. AMERICA. This country was founded on genocide and slavery and now is awash in elitism and corruption at ALL of the highest levels (executive branch, judicial branch, legislative branch). Let's not even talk about CEO's.

You're all traders so you all understand the need to be objective. It will amaze me for the duration of my life how stupid and ignorant smart people can be. I know perspective is very difficult for some people to develop, but I will never understand it.

And stop with all of the talk about caring for the poor better than other countries etc. America isn't rich, but it's financed by the world (seemingly rich). There is more than enough pie to go around, it's just that those who CAN keep too much pie for themselves DO. And dont forget that given that resources and opportunities are NOT UNLIMITED, this pie is only so big, so it benefits YOU, the educated middle/upper middle class citizen, that someone else is NOT taking your spot at a good school/job or whatever other opportunity that may benefit you. Use your fcking heads people and stop thinking with your calculators.

Sorry for the "emotion" but it's frustrating to hear people speak authoritatively about things they don't know much about. The government has a duty, you do not. So while YOU may not care much about issues such as the minimum wage, the gov is supposed to make the decision that is in the best interests of THE PEOPLE, not just some people, even if those "some people" pay all of the taxes, etc.

Stick to trading. Please.
 
Quote from mschey:

Who judges society this way? Kim ju Jong ....or whatever his name is(this man should be shot, poisoned, assassinated or just carpet bomb the entire area to take him out.) Lenin, Marx? Their followers? Who cares what they think.


Let's see...what do we do for the poor? We give them free housing, we provide them free medical care that is better than most people who are productive(translate have a job and work for a living) receive. We also provide them a food program...On top of these government programs, there are many charities and organizations that tend to the poor and unfortunate on a daily basis. So please stop with your bullshit that we don't care for the weakest members of society. Throughout history, the poor have never been taken better care of than in our country...TODAY! If you really want to see what poor is, go visit some other countries, including the communist countries, and tell me who does a better job of caring for the poor.

If you really want to help the poor, help them help themselves. Teach them to fish, rather then give them a fish.
More...
 
Time to come back down to earth and enter the real world again, newby. Go out and make a few bucks on your own, achieve some economic success, learn how the world works, what really works, and what doesn't, and then maybe you can share a qualified opinion. For now, the crap your spewing will remain just that....a bunch of bull shit.
 
Quote from mschey:

Who judges society this way? Kim ju Jong ....or whatever his name is(this man should be shot, poisoned, assassinated or just carpet bomb the entire area to take him out.) Lenin, Marx? Their followers? Who cares what they think.


Let's see...what do we do for the poor? We give them free housing, we provide them free medical care that is better than most people who are productive(translate have a job and work for a living) receive. We also provide them a food program...On top of these government programs, there are many charities and organizations that tend to the poor and unfortunate on a daily basis. So please stop with your bullshit that we don't care for the weakest members of society. Throughout history, the poor have never been taken better care of than in our country...TODAY! If you really want to see what poor is, go visit some other countries, including the communist countries, and tell me who does a better job of caring for the poor.

If you really want to help the poor, help them help themselves. Teach them to fish, rather then give them a fish.
More...

Valid points all...maybe if we tough talking traders allowed these people to earn a more viable wage, there would be fewer poor to have to care for.
 
Quote from mschey:

Time to come back down to earth and enter the real world again, newby. Go out and make a few bucks on your own, achieve some economic success, learn how the world works, what really works, and what doesn't, and then maybe you can share a qualified opinion. For now, the crap your spewing will remain just that....a bunch of bull shit.
More...

you missed my point completely. i'm not new to economic success, just new to trading.

stick to trading.
 
Well, then you should be smart enough to know that raising the minimum wage will do nothing to really help the poor. It's just an action taken or supported so that you and a few others can feel good about yourselves, because you are "helping" others less fortunate than you.
 
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