Middle Office At Bulge-Bracket?

[Hydroblunt]

Quote from NYCFinest:

What about going to MBA school and then trying to get a front-office internship from there? Would that still look bad on the resume for MBA school? His grades are alright, 3.4+.

Depends on the school. To get into a credible grad school, you need either amazing academic credentials and test scores or a good combination of work experience, grades & test scores.

I have a college buddy who was trying the same route while in school at Deutsche Bank. He could not even get an internship, the traders he befriended were powerless. Plain and simple, the heads at H.R. and the Front Office had strict standards of only hiring select Ivy League grads for those positions and would completely ignore everyone else. He worked there for over 2 years till graduation and had to move on since he had no intention of staying in that dead-end position.
This was over 5 years ago, by the way. It has only gotten tougher due to general unwinding of humans in Front Office and the current downturn. Big firms try to discourage employees from back/mid office in trying to move on. They are just sick of it, actually.

The reality is that the tactic of moving from back/mid office to front is decades old. The environment has changed a lot. Working from the mail room to a Vice President are stories of the 80s, not present.

I think your friend should look at smaller firms & funds, where such movement is still possible. Better yet, try to avoid back/mid office.

 

[bt116]

This is not correct. Mid-office (I think this is a name that replaced back-office so that head hunters could get people to take the job) is far far far more often a barier to entry into trading than you think. At most firms it is beyond a long shot. In all the people I have ever known in back/mid-office, and its several, 1 got to trade, and was fired, and 1 got his mba while in the back office and is now an analyst. Those are some crappy odds.

Someone trying to get you to take a mid-office job is going to say things like "its not an impossibility" while at the same time they are going to tell you "don't mention that you want to trade in the interview". Basically says it all.

what makes these jobs even worse is that nowadays so many back office functions are automated and super easy, to the point where operations managers never leave so its really hard to go that route as well.

Bottom line is this, if your long term plan is to trade, find a way to get into trading for your first job, whether it be clerking assisting etc. Do not take a back office job.

 

[NYCFinest]

Quote from bt116:


Bottom line is this, if your long term plan is to trade, find a way to get into trading for your first job, whether it be clerking assisting etc. Do not take a back office job.

I thought being a Clerking / Trading Assistant was a middle office job? Isn't the only front office job Trade Execution? After all, that is what generates revenue.

 

[bt116]

Quote from NYCFinest:

I thought being a Clerking / Trading Assistant was a middle office job? Isn't the only front office job Trade Execution? After all, that is what generates revenue.

HA! Thats the whole beauty of that part of the business. Depending on who you talk to, different parts of the historically back office functions have been given this fancy new title in order to attract (fool) people into taking them. This way I can take a job doing the exact same thing as someone else doing back office work, only I can say I am in the middle office.

Listen, the jist of my point is that I you want to be a trader down the road, don't take these jobs. If it's a TA job, your boss will be a trader, and thats it. You won't be answering to anyone in 'operations', 'middle office', or 'back office'. Its as simple as that.

 

[bt116]

And the bottom line is this....why not just ask the hiring manager "what % of people who take this role become traders here?" That will tell you all you need to know.

 

[hilojack]

Middle office jobs were typically liasons between the trading desk and the investment banks back office. Most every trading desk has their own support (middle office ops-- who deal with intra-firm ops), who then in turn deal with the IB ops (back office-- who deal with inter-firm ops). In middle office, you are not on the desk, but are probably located somewhere nearby, whereas back office might not even be in the same state.

In middle office, you will deal with clients directly. In back office you don't-- you deal with other IBs and middle office. The major areas of middle office ops are: margin, reorganization/dividends, new accts/transfer, and trade reconciliation.

As I posted earlier, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, trade reconciliation/clearing is the ONLY middle ops job where you have a shot at going to the desk, as you will be the one who will liase with traders and clients.

As economic cycles expand and contract, trading desks add/subtract personnel as the market dictates. They don't always wait for hiring cycles. The mid-office reconciliation guy has the best opportunity to become low man on the totem pole on the desk should the bottom asst. leave, get fired, get promoted. If you play your cards right, you could very well make that transition.

It is very expensive for firms to hire new employees, and the chance of them finding the ideal candidate for that position is slim-- as it is a lateral move for anyone who already has that experience.

Bottom line is: it all comes down to you. ( Or your "friend"-- why are you asking for him anyway?). If this is your only option-- take it. If you didn't go to a Top 20 school & you and Daddy don't know anyone who can help you, take it. Its real easy to sit back and say hold out for the desk--- meanwhile you have no income and are getting no experience-- as opposed to undertaking what some deem to bge impossible.

Just because Hydro knew somebody who couldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't. How do I know? BECAUSE I DID IT. I gave you the roadmap, its up to you to navigate the highway.

 

[bt116]

Quote from hilojack:
The mid-office reconciliation guy has the best opportunity to become low man on the totem pole on the desk should the bottom asst. leave, get fired, get promoted. .

It is very expensive for firms to hire new employees, and the chance of them finding the ideal candidate for that position is slim-- as it is a lateral move for anyone who already has that experience.

Fine, if you want to say the middle office guy has the 'best chance' I will reluctantly give you that. But that best chance is still a very slim chance at best.

In response to your point of it being an expense to go outside to look for replacements, well, I know at least 3 or 4 headhunters who refer to banks and funds as "ATMs" in this respect. Most feel that they would rather go out and overpay for the lateral move guy than train the in house guy.

And BTW, I am also speaking from experience. i wasn't quite as lucky as this guy, nor were any of my colleagues at the firm I was working at. I have now gone outside to get a TA role, and I work with someone who is fresh out of college.

 

[hilojack]

Quote from bt116:

Fine, if you want to say the middle office guy has the 'best chance' I will reluctantly give you that. But that best chance is still a very slim chance at best.

In response to your point of it being an expense to go outside to look for replacements, well, I know at least 3 or 4 headhunters who refer to banks and funds as "ATMs" in this respect. Most feel that they would rather go out and overpay for the lateral move guy than train the in house guy.

And BTW, I am also speaking from experience. i wasn't quite as lucky as this guy, nor were any of my colleagues at the firm I was working at. I have now gone outside to get a TA role, and I work with someone who is fresh out of college.

Like I said, it all comes down to the individual. Maybe this guy doesn't have a shot in the world of getting his resume past the gatekeeper so this is his ONLY shot. Nobody decides to take a middle office job over a trading desk job.

As far as headhunters go, these people are utterly talentless and on the same page as mortgage brokers. sure they make some cash, but I'd never listen to their opinions.

Things on the desk move fast, as you may be figuring out. When I made the jump from middle office to TA, I was literally kidnapped by the head of the desk and he told my ops boss to go F himself and find my replacement. This happened because the desk was expanding and one of the traders on the desk left. So the TA becomes the new replacement trader, they were still interviewing others for the trader they were going to hire anyway, and I became the new TA. The transition was seemless for me as I already knew our clients, I knew our computer systems, I knew who to go to to get stuff done. The guys on the desk didn't have time to train a new TA from a different firm with or without experience, and NOBODY on the desk wanted a newbie, ivy league pedigree or not.

Coincidentally, my desk hired an experienced trader as part of their "normal" hiring cycle. He lasted 6 months before they canned him, at which time I took his place. Middle ops to trader in under a year.

The problem with todays college grad is that they ALL think theyre entitled to the kingdom, they all seem to know it all already, and are not willing to take jobs they deem "beneath" them. If you can get your foot in door, you take it. What happens inside is up to you. If you can't make it from middle office to the desk, you don't belong there in the first place.

 

[NYCFinest]

Quote from bt116:

And the bottom line is this....why not just ask the hiring manager "what % of people who take this role become traders here?" That will tell you all you need to know.

Is this a good thing to ask a hiring manager? It's basically telling him/her that you don't want to work for him/her long term and that you just want the position to move up to front-office.

 

[rosy2]

Quote from NYCFinest:

Hi,

One of my friends just got offered a middle-office position at a bulge bracket. (Clearing/Settling trades, etc). How hard is it to move from middle-office to front-office at one of these large companies?

Thanks.

thats backoffice. easiest way to get on a desk is to learn how to program and move from there