Materialists

Quote from axeman:

OOOOoooooooohhhhh so Scholars now carry weight???

So if I give you a list of "scholars" which claim a historical
Jesus never existed you would accept this??? :D


peace

axeman
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I've read your and jem's discussions about this. I think you already know my opinion: "nothing argues like success..."
 
yep, it's kind of pointless to argue whether or not jesus existed in any meaningful fashion when a billion people on the planet believe he did.

same for any other sprititual "inspiration".
 
Quote from Turok:

Shoe:
>1. It's past tense.

ROFLAO!!!!!!!!!! Shoe, it's the PARABLE that will most likely be told in present tense. ARE YOU KIDDING HERE. Quick...tell me a TRUE story from the past about your grandmother -- present tense? -- past tense? EXACTLY! If it is a true historical story of course it will be told in past tense. Your thinking is just amazing sometimes.
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You missed the point: I'm asking if you believe Jesus intended this as a true story in the past? That's all I'm asking. I don't, but that's just my opinion...

And notice the state of affairs: the entire theory is built on the story of Lazarus. Hmmm....
 
Quote from Turok:
Quick...tell me a TRUE story from the past about your grandmother -- present tense? -- past tense?
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so i'm stopping by my grandma's place after work, right, to pay respects and eat sausages and strudel, you know. i'm sitting at the table and she hands me some lottery tickets, which i'm looking at and thinking to myself, why is she bothering? so i say to her "grandma, i love you, but these numbers aren't going to win". i'm not a genius, but let's be real, the odds of my being wrong are prettly slim.

so she's looking at me with those 80 year old eyes, i can see the wheels are turning churning oil is burning and finally saying "ok, if you're so smart, tell me which numbers WILL win!".

EXACTLY!
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not quite. :) putting a character into the past and then telling in present/future tenses is standard storytelling technique. think of all the mini-stories told in wiseguy films - 3/4 of them are told this way. brings a vivid sense of immediacy to the story.
 
And since nothing fails like prayer, you obviously dont
believe in jesus then :D

peace

axeman


Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

I've read your and jem's discussions about this. I think you already know my opinion: "nothing argues like success..."
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FALLACY: Ad Populum - Appeal to Popularity
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Appeal_to_the_majority
http://www.amosweb.com/cgi-bin/wpd.pl?fcd=dsp&key=fallacy+of+mass+appeal

Also known as the Bandwagon Fallacy.

An argument does rest on popular belief, but on EVIDENCE.


Surely you know that Damir. :D


peace

axeman


Quote from damir00:

yep, it's kind of pointless to argue whether or not jesus existed in any meaningful fashion when a billion people on the planet believe he did.

same for any other sprititual "inspiration".
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as usual, you are succeeding in completely missing the point. a billion people believing something doesn't make it true - it makes the truth of the belief less relevant than the fact they believe it. to use your favorite example :) constantinople was razed to the ground by jesus freaks in the name of jesus - whether or not jesus actually existed.

mass belief is far more powerful than minority disbelief. true in the markets, true in politics, true in religion.

2000 years removed from the events, whether jesus existed or not is irrelevant, and will continue to be irrelevant as long as masses of people believe the stories are real. since there is no real way to prove it one or the other, the belief will no doubt continue indefinetely
 
Quote from axeman:

FALLACY: Ad Populum - Appeal to Popularity
peace

axeman
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Yes, but a billion evangelicals is what you would expect if He did exist and was who He said He was. Does that prove anything? No, but it is what you would expect from a theistic model...

I also find it amusing that humanists always say, "If it is worth anything, it will sell itself. You wouldn't have to beat people over the head with it..." Well, that's exactly what's happening. Without violence or even aggressive coercion, the gospel is exploding across the planet and "selling itself"...
 
axe you are a useless.

You make a statement that we should have more corroboration of Jessus's life in the historical record for a second time and act like it is some great new point. I remind you that I alreadypointed out to you , that we have an exceptionally limited amount of any writings that are from the subject period.


I also point out that we have one well regarded historian. I left out the other weaker examples. and you think you make a good argument by pointing the historian was born in 37 a.d. and then misrepresenting the academic respect people have for the historical record.

AXE make legit arguments and address the important ones. (The first point I made)


Secondly, once again for spect8or you and turok.

Bertram Russell is the father of modern intellectual atheism. He made the statements about it all being irrelevant if you are an atheist.

I am surprised you are all acting so stupid as to not understand why a very important athiest would make such a statement. It is so obvious if you think about it.

Now it is not my argument to make it is yours. But I will start you off.

According to just about any understanding that excludes design. We are just a cosmic mistake.

Consequently, your thought and beliefs are no more important or correct than anyone else's. It is all valid. It is all irrelevant it is all meaningless. You belief is no more valid than OBL's or the executioner of the berg guy today.

When you think through your atheistic belief the only logical conclusion you have is that it is better to be the criminal than the victim.

Then you get into Rousseau and locke and jefferson.

If you really understand the history of philosophy and thought you understand that it took Christianity to lead to the freedoms of the west and your rights to present stupid arguments.

But you perfer to harp on non arguments than to address the obvious questions about your own professions of athiesm.
 
JEM:axe you are a useless.

Ad Hominem - fallacy #1


JEM:You make a statement that we should have more corroboration of Jessus's life in the historical record for a second time and act like it is some great new point. I remind you that I alreadypointed out to you , that we have an exceptionally limited amount of any writings that are from the subject period.

Excuse #1 that does not free you from the burden of proof.



JEM:I also point out that we have one well regarded historian.

False. He has been refuted numerous times.
I guess you glossed over all the reasons I posted.



JEM: I left out the other weaker examples. and you think you make a good argument by pointing the historian was born in 37 a.d.

Obviously this is an important point.
He is therefore NOT a contemporary historian
and therefore his statements are merely cult hearsay.
As an attorney, YOU SHOULD KNOW the value of hearsay. Zip.



JEM:... and then misrepresenting the academic respect people have for the historical record.

Blatant lie #1. Ive posted plenty of scholars opinion that this
Jospephus phrases were blatant forgeries.
How soon we forget. Even if they were not, they could only
be hearsay, decades after the fact, so they are worthless.



JEM:AXE make legit arguments and address the important ones. (The first point I made)

Already addressed this. Your first point is nothing more
than an EXCUSE which does not free you from the burden of proof.

The fact is, there is no rational reason to believe in a historical Jesus.
It doesnt even remotely add up. And your weak excuse is just that.


Come back to the table when you have some MEAT to your argument.


Try providing ONE CONTEMPORARY HISTORIAN who mentions
jesus, the man god who was supposedly WIDELY known. :D

Full of holes JEM. The weakest most unsupported argument ive
ever heard you make. Very disappointing for an attorney.
I hope your not a trail lawyer, would feel sorry for anyone
you were defending :p


peace

axeman
 
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