Materialists

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Turok:

Shoe on biblical hell:
>There is a deliberate silence...

A: Let's say there IS silence (there isn't) -- the evidence to support that this silence is "deliberate" is what?

B: The references in the word of god to hell as a fiery place are available repeatedly in BOTH the old and new testament. How many times must he speak in regards to this subject before one concludes that there IS NO silence, let alone "deliberate silence"?

JB

Yes, but (I think) you're missing my point. Why are you interpreting that as a "combustion, carbon-based fire"? We have no idea what God means by "fire" in the spiritual realm.

If someone want to have an opinion that "fire" in these passages means a flesh-searing, torturing fire - that's fine. They're entitled to their opinion.

But I can only ask, "Where's the proof?". The only passage that I can think of that even remotely ties to such an opinion is the one in Revelation (20:10). However, in this passage it is the false prohpet, devil, etc. that are so "tortured". There is no passage showing those that don't follow God burning torturously forever in a literal, earth-like fire that I know of...

 

[Doubter]

Quote from stu:

Doubter,

You may well be hearing that very thing, but it is not what message boards, communication between people or logical discussion is about.
You are doing the equivalent of jumping in the pool, taking a wee, then climbing out whilst shouting "leave the rest of us to face the consequences of our peeing".

My interest is, why you feel you have to pee in the water first off.

_________________________________________

Please explain.

 

[Turok]

Shoe:
>I'm sorry for misrepresenting the SDA position,

You know I take no offense to any representation you wish to make about SDAs. LOL I just want to keep theological points straight.

>although I think it is a minor point.

I am actually laughing out loud here Shoe. You described this peaceful inevitable ending to ones life:

>Sometime after the end of your life you are judged
>and sometime thereafter your life is taken away.

When actually the SDAs believe you are burned to death over varying lengths of time. And you call that a MINOR POINT. ROFLAO!!!!!! Buddy, whether my life just ends (blink) or I get burned to death is pretty MAJOR point in my book.

JB

PS: But then, that's just me.

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

Not sure exactly what you're saying, but let's take the SDA case. You live a "rational and reasonable" life by your definition, i.e. you're a "pretty nice guy":

Sometime after the end of your life you are judged and sometime thereafter your life is taken away. This is exactly what you "want" and how you view life right now. As a materialist, you believe that your life will end after your time here on planet earth anyway. So I don't see the objection as you essentially would be given exactly what you want and expect...

 

[Doubter]

Quote from Turok:

LOL. No offense taken Doubter.

While of course we are all greatly affected by our pasts I like to think that my "aversion to christianity" comes from my years of study AFTER I left the cult environment in which I was raised.

JB

____________________________________________

One of the things I learned early in my Christian walk is that we will very likely become like what we most dislike in our parents. That is a somewhat frightening prospect.

If my wife wants to stop some annoying habit of mine she always says "You're becoming more like the bad traits in your dad everyday". That really gives me pause but it is often the truth that hurts.

 

[Turok]

There is much truth to what you say there and I will add another observation to yours...

I think often the easiest thing for us to do is to either be the same as our parents (perhaps from intellectual laziness), or *exactly* the opposite (perhaps from reactionism rather than reason).

I see in my life and others that those two positions are the path of least resistance and vigilance is required to ensure that our positions are REALLY ours.

JB

Quote from Doubter:

____________________________________________

One of the things I learned early in my Christian walk is that we will very likely become like what we most dislike in our parents. That is a somewhat frightening prospect.

If my wife wants to stop some annoying habit of mine she always says "You're becoming more like the bad traits in your dad everyday". That really gives me pause but it is often the truth that hurts.

 

[stu]

Quote from Doubter:

Please explain.

ok.

I presented my rebuttal to the points you raised 1 to 4.

Your response is "I think I am hearing that you already made your decision. If so then that is fine. So you can now leave the rest of us to face the consequences of our decisions."
If you want to just be able to state certain things without any questions or critical remark being raised, I don't think this is the correct arena for you to expect your one sided protestation for religion to go unchallenged .
My criticism is either valid by logical deduction in which case what you say is plain wrong,..., or by that or some other means if you can make it so, you might try to show you are right by countering my response to your points 1 to 4.

I can state "God does not exist and if you think he does I leave you to the consequences of eternal misery for not realizing it".
What does that do but display a need to grandstand my statement and avoid debate, which is what I am saying is tantamount to what you are doing. Hence the swimming pool analogy. I think it may be worse than that.... I have an image of wee wee in the jacuzzi.

 

[ShoeshineBoy]

Quote from Turok:

Shoe:

When actually the SDAs believe you are burned to death over varying lengths of time. And you call that a MINOR POINT. ROFLAO!!!!!! Buddy, whether my life just ends (blink) or I get burned to death is pretty MAJOR point in my book.

True! I didn't state that well. What I meant was that there are simply no descriptions of hell in any way. We have nothing except that 1) it is a "fire" and 2) the wicked are "destroyed" at the end of the age.

Chrisitians have interpreted these ideas in different ways, but it's all speculation beyond that. The SDA's and anyone else of course are free to speculate but I have always thought that when we wildly speculate on something that the Bible is silent about, we cause more problems than we solve...

 

[Doubter]

Quote from Turok:

There is much truth to what you say there and I will add another observation to yours...

I think often the easiest thing for us to do is to either be the same as our parents (perhaps from intellectual laziness), or *exactly* the opposite (perhaps from reactionism rather than reason).

I see in my life and others that those two positions are the path of least resistance and vigilance is required to ensure that our positions are REALLY ours.

JB

___________________________________________

Right on! There is really nothing I can add.

I am acquainted with several SDA people and know a little of their teachings so to me you would need to not reject all their teachings just because they are their teachings but be very careful that what you believe is your own and not reactionary.
It sounds as if this is your quest and disclipline.

 

[Doubter]

Quote from stu:

ok.

I presented my rebuttal to the points you raised 1 to 4.

Your response is "I think I am hearing that you already made your decision. If so then that is fine. So you can now leave the rest of us to face the consequences of our decisions."
If you want to just be able to state certain things without any questions or critical remark being raised, I don't think this is the correct arena for you to expect your one sided protestation for religion to go unchallenged .
My criticism is either valid by logical deduction in which case what you say is plain wrong,..., or by that or some other means if you can make it so, you might try to show you are right by countering my response to your points 1 to 4.

I can state "God does not exist and if you think he does I leave you to the consequences of eternal misery for not realizing it".
What does that do but display a need to grandstand my statement and avoid debate, which is what I am saying is tantamount to what you are doing. Hence the swimming pool analogy. I think it may be worse than that.... I have an image of wee wee in the jacuzzi.

______________________________________________

If I remember correctly Turok and I were in the pool or jacuzzi already. Trying to have a civil and mature discussion when along comes an interloper who accuses me of peeing in the pool because of a hopefully benign answer. Go figure?

 

[Turok]

There is significant description even from the mouth of Jesus himself. I will get there soon.

JB

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

True! I didn't state that well. What I meant was that there are simply no descriptions of hell in any way. We have nothing except that 1) it is a "fire" and 2) the wicked are "destroyed" at the end of the age.