Materialists

[Turok]

Dark:
>Sure: the undeniable conclusion of atheism is that
>in the end, nothing matters. No matter what happens
>in this life, it will all become pointless eventually.

You are simply applying *your* definition of "meaning" (something that must endure beyond this world) and saying 'therefore the undeniable conclusion is... blah, blah'

I can think of two very different meanings of "meaning" that leave your conclusion gasping. I happen to find at least one of these meanings (A) *more* rewarding than yours since it is give freely without any risk if not proffered.

A: Being kind to someone right now with no thought about future reward. Give your significant other a kiss and tell her she is beautiful just because she is. Tell your daughter how proud you are of her just because you are. Help someone less fortunate just because you are more fortunate. The list is endless and the result is very meaningful to someone not focused on the afterlife.

B: Accomplishments need not and often don't die with the person. To assert that there is not a trickle down (or sometimes torrent down) effect on following generations is folly. Think of Jonas Salk as an obvious example. Here is a guy who gave years of his life to a breakthrough that saved countless lives and yet he refused to patent the drug (a sure route to riches). Our lives for generations to come will be better for him.

>But if the atheist is to be truly consistent in logic,
>he or she must realize that "life purpose" is a
>personal construct and nothing more, a self
>created illusion designed to create fulfillment in life.

Completely false. See "B" above. The results of the polio vaccine and the "meaning" we attribute to Jonas' life are far from a self created illusion on his part. He made a REAL difference in my life and so I can make a difference in others forever generations to come.

>There is a delicious irony in believing that nothing
>ultimately matters because, when taken to the final
>conclusion, the belief system is forced to collapse in
>on itself.

Ok, now I'm not so sure who is the more black turtlenecked pompous one...you or Row.

JB

 

[axeman]

Dark: "So yes, I think maybe you're starting to see the ramifications of what you believe for the first time. "

LOL.... I only see someone with an unsupported argument
full of holes. YOU


Lets make it OBVIOUS that it DOES matter dark.

Assume YOU are the atheist you are attempting to paint here.
If I were to ask you, this atheist, may I horrificly torture you to death
right now, because you see, you believe that nothing matters
because in the end you cease to exist?

Honestly.... would you answer SUUUUURE, why of course!!!
Would you?
Please explain why you would or woud not.
(pain avoidness doesnt matter after all, we die in the end )


You see... I dont NEED an "ultimate purpose" to have purpose.
I can easily CHOOSE my own purpose and follow it.
And yes...it DOES matter.

Because you see...... things have MORE value when they
can be lost.

A man born with an unlimited source of money, does not
value money. A man born immortal, does not value life.
An atheist, who knows his life is limited, values life to an extreme.


As for your ultimate purpose...this also begs the question...
how do you KNOW your ultimate purpose is even REAL???
What if your god belief is TOTAL BULLSHIT and you believe this
nonsense written by unknown authors, unverified by any
contemporary historian???

What if in the end you REALLY DO just die and thats it?
Doesnt it bother you that you could be wasting your life
on thesitic bullshit instead of enjoying it more?

And dont give me the debunked Pascals Wager for the 100th time.


peace

axeman

Quote from darkhorse:

You're absolutely right axe, it is absurd- and that's exactly why atheism is absurd.

If we're all going to oblivion, and what happens here and now will be wiped out from existence, then yes, there is no rhyme or reason to what you do or who you do it to. Like Gekko says, you and Mother Theresa and Hitler are all going to the same place, and once you get there and everyone you ever came into contact with gets there, what happened while you existed won't have any meaning, for anyone, period.

So yes, I think maybe you're starting to see the ramifications of what you believe for the first time. If there is no ultimate purpose, then the only short term purpose is self fulfillment, and all ends justify all means. Everything else is bullshit.

I'd love to hear how you can justify thinking anything actually matters if we are all going to cease existing and have all memories obliterated.

Again, this is the end result of YOUR belief, not mine. I'm just trying to take you down the path a little further. Gotta fly but I'll respond tomorrow.

 

[rowenwood]

Did I win my debate with Dark? I think I won, but it matters what the readers think.

 

[jem]

axe
I stated that the you misinterpreted the meaning of a passage in a book because you misinterpreted the meaning of Christendom.


That is all I said. Your error was a simple error made by many. Instead of admiting a mistake or dropping it you start letting the strawmen fly.

I repeat, I have said nothing about the cause of the crusades.

 

[axeman]

You said:
Axe -- there is a very large difference between saying that the crusades were on behalf of christendom and on behalf of christ and his followers.


CHRISTENDOM: Definition -
the collective body of Christians throughout the world and history; "for a thousand years the Roman Catholic Church was the principal church of Christendom"


Ummmm excuse me but, "the collective body of christians"
and "chirists followers" sure seem like a MATCH to me
Unless you want to assert that christians ARE NOT followers of christ. LMAOO

Simply put. Your wrong.
Sorry...but you dont have the authority to redfine "christendom"
as "the west".

But nice try.


peace

axeman

Quote from jem:

axe
I stated that the you misinterpreted the meaning of a passage in a book because you misinterpreted the meaning of Christendom.


That is all I said. Your error was a simple error made by many. Instead of admiting a mistake or dropping it you start letting the strawmen fly.

I repeat, I have said nothing about the cause of the crusades.

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from Turok:


Ok, now I'm not so sure who is the more black turtlenecked pompous one...you or Row.

JB

Meeting got postponed so I have some extra time.

Your definition of meaning, as you present it, is still based on personal fulfillment.

A misanthrope could just as easily respond, "being cruel to someone right now with no thought of future reward. Hurting someone just because you can, etc."

Efforts for posterity can have a positive effect on the lives of others, but only a temporary one, for a temporary time. If all record of human achievement and happiness is eventually extinguished, the accomplishments of man can not have been said to last.

The problem goes back to the fact that you are still trying to carve out meaning from meaninglessness, in your own way. If you choose to convince yourself that you have succeeded, that's great.

But the ultimate void is still there, only papered over- and so the act is still one of intellectual dishonesty, regardless of the level of self fulfillment achieved.

You may consider my beliefs arrogant, but I'm not trying to make them so. I'm just pointing out the inherent contradiction of believing on the one hand that existence is a purposeless and temporary accident, and then behaving as if it is not on the other.

The main point of interest for me is demonstrating that atheists do not have a lock on rationality and logic, as many of them seem to assume.

 

[jem]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03699b.htm

In its wider sense this term is used to describe the part of the world which is inhabited by Christians, as Germany in the Middle Ages was the country inhabited by Germans. The word will be taken in this quantitative sense in the article RELIGIONS in comparing the extent of Christendom with that of Paganism or of Islam. But there is a narrower sense in which Christendom stands for a polity as well as a religion, for a nation as well as for a people. Christendom in this sense was an ideal which inspired and dignified many centuries of history and which has not yet altogether lost its power over the minds of men.




( I believe) The above is a catholic encyclopedia. Now if you want to play the cite game again. Please lets start with your orginal quotes from the Catholic encyclopedia. We should put them in context. Where did you get the cite from could you give us a link or give us the passages before and after your text.

 

[Turok]

Dark:
>What's your definition of Christianity? I would
>define it as following Christ and following the
>teachings of Christ. And Christ supports and
>teaches mass murder how exactly?

Very first definition found on googling "christianity definition":

>1. Christianity, Christian religion -- (a monotheistic system
>of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and
>the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament
>and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior)

Read that definition to a thousand Christians and how many do you think will object? Thought so.

However, I knew you would likely head down this little pedantic pathway so that is why I stipulated early in the exchange...

>Ask 100 Christians what the primary book or
>'roadmap' shall we say of their religion is and
>at least 99 of them will say the Bible.

The christian bible (the old AND *especially* the new testament) preaches mass brutal murder through word and deed. I'm still waiting for a similar document blueprinting democracy through such actions.

>Re the democratic instruction book, since we're talking
>ancient times lets look at ancient Rome. When Roman
>citizens supported the empire's military efforts to overtake
>a neighboring nation and wipe out all who would oppose
>them in the name of conquest and tribute, what would
>you call that other than democratic justification of mass
>murder for a desirable end?

I specifically stated that there were plenty of examples of democratic societies committing atrocities -- (I have no quarrel with that assertion, even as it relates to this country), so let's not lose site of the prize here...I can produce the overwhelmingly primary document upon which the christian faith is based and can show that it intrinsically supports mass brutal murder. To support your assertion that democracy and mass murder are just as intrinsically linked, please produce something similar.


>And in modern times, when Japan did the same
>thing to China with the support of Japanese citizens,
>what would you call that? Same thing, no?

>If China eventually decides to decimate Taiwan and
>force them to acquiesce via bloodshed, will there be
>any difference there? How about Slobodan Milosevic,
>who had the full support of his people?

Ignoring for a moment the fact that I am not looking for examples of mass murder, but *teachings* of mass murder intrinsic to a democratic philosophy, I would ask:

Japan - 1931, Yugoslavia -- '90s, China - 2003. Democracies? You bring those to the table as examples of atrocities "intrinsic" to democracies?

>Again, my point is not that it's in the "democratic
>instruction manual." It's in the people, and
>brutality can express itself democratically just as
>easily as it can through religion.

You keep saying that, but you can't seem to produce much evidence to support it. Christianity intrinsically preaches brutal mass murder by god and underlings and history is rife with examples of it's followers following. I can't seem to find the equivalent intrinsic to democracy...I'm looking, but I just can't find it -- well, other than those Japanese, Chinese and Yugoslavian democracy examples you gave. LOL

JB

 

[axeman]

Dark is very creative at dodging your question Turok
with much fluffy speak

Elegant writings with no meat to them.

peace

axeman

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from axeman:
Lets make it OBVIOUS that it DOES matter dark.

Assume YOU are the atheist you are attempting to paint here.
If I were to ask you, this atheist, may I horrificly torture you to death
right now, because you see, you believe that nothing matters
because in the end you cease to exist?

Honestly.... would you answer SUUUUURE, why of course!!!
Would you?
Please explain why you would or woud not.
(pain avoidness doesnt matter after all, we die in the end )

No, if you asked me whether you could torture me I would say no, because that would not be in my best interests.

My best interests, however, would have no bearing on yours. You see axe, in a world where there is no higher standard, the only final arbiter of authority is force. If you want to torture me, and I don't want you to, then the ultimate result will be settled by force. And if we are both atheists, then there is no right and wrong in the matter, because neither of us has a higher authority to appeal to other than our own actions and desires.

Quote from axeman:
You see... I dont NEED an "ultimate purpose" to have purpose.
I can easily CHOOSE my own purpose and follow it.
And yes...it DOES matter.

You can choose your own purpose temporarily, yes absolutely.

But this was exactly part of my larger point: if you recognize that your beliefs and your actions are merely a construct to suit your purpose, then why criticize others for having beliefs and actions different than yours? By what method or standard do you choose other than personal fulfillment alone? You may behave in accordance with civilized laws, but only because it is in your personal interest to do so.

Quote from axeman:
Because you see...... things have MORE value when they
can be lost.

A man born with an unlimited source of money, does not
value money. A man born immortal, does not value life.
An atheist, who knows his life is limited, values life to an extreme.

Yes I agree, it's quite natural to value your own life to an extreme. Indeed, some have valued their own lives to such an extreme that they are perfectly willing to harm or destroy the lives of others for their own personal benefit. And what's stopping them? For the self professed chooser of purpose, there is no right or wrong, only individual choice in regards to what is right or wrong.

Quote from axeman:
As for your ultimate purpose...this also begs the question...
how do you KNOW your ultimate purpose is even REAL???
What if your god belief is TOTAL BULLSHIT and you believe this
nonsense written by unknown authors, unverified by any
contemporary historian???

What if in the end you REALLY DO just die and thats it?
Doesnt it bother you that you could be wasting your life
on thesitic bullshit instead of enjoying it more?

And dont give me the debunked Pascals Wager for the 100th time.

This question is part of a much broader and deeper conversation. I could answer you but not in a single post, and I assure you my answer would have nothing to do with Pascal's wager.

As for "enjoying life more," belief in God is no detriment to maximizing happiness. I am well content, deeply satisfied, and wake up happy and excited to be alive most every morning. And life just keeps getting better as I go.