Materialists

Quote from Turok:


Luke Chapter 16, verses 19-28. For brevity sake I will skip down to the relevent verses, but Jesus is speaking here as verse one starts with "And he {jesus} said also unto his disciples..."

19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame .
25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented .
26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence .
27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment .

So Jesus himself is speaking here. He is not in parable mode -- he generally indicated when he was in such mode and he additionally here uses the proper names of major Biblical characters. If you research Jesus' parables, I believe you will find that he never used proper names within.

According to Jesus Christ, hell is clearly a place tormented by flame. Also it's clear that once you check in you can't check out. (that is not to say that you can't die there).


Now I am truly stunned on this one. I have of course read this many times and have never come away with the idea that it was anything other than a story. Here are just some of the reasons:

1. It's past tense.
2. There is no name to the poor man.
3. Do you really believe there was a Lazarus that had a real conversation with Abraham?

It's true this isn't the typical parable. But I just don't buy the idea that it's a real story that happened in the past.
 
Quote from Turok:

Various Shoe quotes on biblical hell:
>There is a deliberate silence...

I find that a very strange position considering what IS written.

>Think about it: we have several passages describing
>heaven, i.e. streets of gold, etc. Where is a similar
>description of hell?

Well, while heaven is gated and bejeweled and paved and glimmering, hells description is merely...well, freakin HOT. We have descriptions how people *respond* to the tortures of hell (see below), but an abyss of flames is not going to evoke a Tom Wolfe like description (I consider Wolfe one of the most annoyingly detailed fiction writers around).
........................


But, second of all, and more importantly, you cannot build a doctrine upon this imo for many reasons:

1. It's only one passage.
2. The rich guy could have just been a nasty individual who was truly getting what he deserved.
3. This verse in no way implies or states that this state will go on forever, i.e. he could be destroyed at the end of the age.

Think about it: the whole theory of a Miltonian hell is built on one semi-parable in the New Testament.

What does that tell me? That the position is weak at best. You should always have at least 3 passages to support a major doctrine imo...
 
Funny how you think you have the authority to PICK AND CHOOSE
what REALLY happened and what didnt :p

Come on man... how about some consistency here?

Funny.... I think the same thing of the ENTIRE bible....
I just dont think its a real story that happened in the past :D

peace

axeman


Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

But I just don't buy the idea that it's a real story that happened in the past. [/B]
 
OOOOOOOOooooooooooooh I see!!!

So I can automatically reject EVERYTHING in the bible that
is not mentioned at least 3 times??? :D

Is THAT what you are saying?

peace

axeman


Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
You should always have at least 3 passages to support a major doctrine imo... [/B]
 
Quote from Turok:

More of hell from the mouth of Jesus...

From Mark chapter 9

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
..............




These only prove that hell is permanent in nature and something to be afraid of. They in no way prove hell is a place of endless torture.

For example, let me ask you a question: do you really think that Jesus was saying that people in hell would have worms eating at them like some kind of maggot infested torture chamber?

Well, for the record, I don't think so for one second!
 
There are many verses describing the destruction of the wicked of which I am sure you are familiar. Here's a few to start with:

"For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out." Pr 22:20

"But these enemies of mine, who did ot want me to reign over them, brign them here, and slay them in my presence." Lk 19:27

"And do not fear him who kills the body but is unable to kill the sould; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell." Mt 10:28

To me these verses and many others are crystal clear. The wicked and those who reject God will go away at some point in the future...
 
Quote from axeman:

Funny how you think you have the authority to PICK AND CHOOSE
what REALLY happened and what didnt :p

Come on man... how about some consistency here?

Funny.... I think the same thing of the ENTIRE bible....
I just dont think its a real story that happened in the past :D

peace

axeman

I know, but let Turok and I have a conversation about this. Turok is arguing strictly from an interpretational standpoint and I understand that...
 
Quote from axeman:

OOOOOOOOooooooooooooh I see!!!

So I can automatically reject EVERYTHING in the bible that
is not mentioned at least 3 times??? :D

Is THAT what you are saying?

peace

axeman

I would not build a major doctrine unless it was in there at least three times. And you will find all major ones are...
 
Dude...slow down and read what I have written in the past. I am not trying to prove or disprove an *enternal* hell. I am only demonstrating that THERE IS NO SILENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...and additionally that hell IS fiery in nature and is a torturous place (all things that you seem to want to disbelieve)

JB

Quote from ShoeshineBoy:

These only prove that hell is permanent in nature and something to be afraid of. They in no way prove hell is a place of endless torture.

 
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