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marriage and government
- Thread starter Gordon Gekko
- Start date
Quote from ElCubano:
R you guys serious asking this question??? please dont have children....
Hey dude we are not talking about people FORCING their children into prostitution, what we are talking about is when your daughter wants to be a prostitute, do you let her.
i say yes, if she wants to she can
Tiki
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
Know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of people arguing for increased national government. Socialism has struggled terribly around the globe and people are still arguing about how fantastic it is. If you want to believe socialism is great - fine. But don't expect the rest of the world to embrace it cuzz it hasn't worked.
Maybe I shouldn't have brought politics into this, but here's my point: for whatever reason, you may want to think it's great for families to engage in many marriages, multiple marriages, prostitution, etc. But guess what? What you think doesn't matter. It doesn't work! The more unstable the home the more problems your kids will have with school, drugs, etc., etc. That's what the stats show!
C'mon people! That's one of the reasons the Sexual Revolution died so quickly: it's an unsustainable lifestyle for many reaons, but most notably it's VERY hard on families...
The point is not to force a lifestyle on people. The point is that people shouldnt have a lifestyle forced upon them.
Tiki
Quote from tikipoki:
There isnt prositution in every state because america is not a free country
Tiki
This is an empty argument. Are we not a free country because we don't allow child pornography? Of course not! Child pornography is detrimental to kids. So is prostitution.
Or are you seriously arguing that prostitution is good for families?
Shoe:"And, by the way, why do I care what you do "in your bedroom"?? Kids. Another coincidence: the research shows that kids do best with a stable home life. "
You see Shoe.... what is funny to the atheists, is the fact
that you cant see the tree's through forest.
Look at what you just said:
The research shows that kids do best with a stable home life.
Here is a RATIONAL reason to argue for a model LIKE marriage.
Note: I think there are plenty of ways to have a "stable home life"
outside of the typical american marriage model. Just look at
some of the communal societies.
The point is... you just SHOWED US that you are perfectly
capable of coming up with a REASON **why** we should
form a society that attempts to have "stable home life" for
the children.
This is how I would approach the problem.
Lets approach this from a completely SELFISH angle.
Making sure STABLE home lives exist for children is important
to **ME** because then there is a lower chance of them
growing up to be thugs, and villains, who could do damage
to me and my family in the future, thus tearing the fabric
of the society I live in. Making sure children are given the
tools to grow up to be productive, moral, individuals in MY
society is beneficial to ME and MY society.
This is a very philosophical discussion which gets back to the
nature of rights, morality, ethics, etc...
It is clear that SOME of theists are not very well read in this area.
Otherwise, many of the answers to the questions you
pose would be quite obvious.
In summary... there are MANY forms of "societies" which
can be design that work well. Some may have different
forms of "marriage" or no marriage at all. The problems
associated with designed a well oiled society can be
solved in MANY different ways. This is why many of the
laws are ARBITRARY. But not all. Its the arbitrariness that
seems to bother you.
I only submit that ALL of these different designs need
to uphold the *rights* of individuals.
Aphex asked what morality is.
I like the objectivist definition myself:
It is a code of VALUES to guide man's choices and actions -
the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the
course of his life"
But for the above to make sense...you must have deep
understanding of what values are and what the proper
purpose of your life is.
But I really dont want to get into that discussion...will take too much time. I can only advise you to do some reading.
Interesting stuff.
peace
axeman
You see Shoe.... what is funny to the atheists, is the fact
that you cant see the tree's through forest.
Look at what you just said:
The research shows that kids do best with a stable home life.
Here is a RATIONAL reason to argue for a model LIKE marriage.
Note: I think there are plenty of ways to have a "stable home life"
outside of the typical american marriage model. Just look at
some of the communal societies.
The point is... you just SHOWED US that you are perfectly
capable of coming up with a REASON **why** we should
form a society that attempts to have "stable home life" for
the children.
This is how I would approach the problem.
Lets approach this from a completely SELFISH angle.
Making sure STABLE home lives exist for children is important
to **ME** because then there is a lower chance of them
growing up to be thugs, and villains, who could do damage
to me and my family in the future, thus tearing the fabric
of the society I live in. Making sure children are given the
tools to grow up to be productive, moral, individuals in MY
society is beneficial to ME and MY society.
This is a very philosophical discussion which gets back to the
nature of rights, morality, ethics, etc...
It is clear that SOME of theists are not very well read in this area.
Otherwise, many of the answers to the questions you
pose would be quite obvious.
In summary... there are MANY forms of "societies" which
can be design that work well. Some may have different
forms of "marriage" or no marriage at all. The problems
associated with designed a well oiled society can be
solved in MANY different ways. This is why many of the
laws are ARBITRARY. But not all. Its the arbitrariness that
seems to bother you.
I only submit that ALL of these different designs need
to uphold the *rights* of individuals.
Aphex asked what morality is.
I like the objectivist definition myself:
It is a code of VALUES to guide man's choices and actions -
the choices and actions that determine the purpose and the
course of his life"
But for the above to make sense...you must have deep
understanding of what values are and what the proper
purpose of your life is.
But I really dont want to get into that discussion...will take too much time. I can only advise you to do some reading.
Interesting stuff.
peace
axeman
Quote from jem:
I could not read this whole thread so sorry if this point has been made in the last 10 pages.
But Gordon needs to read feminist and communist thought on this subject which I think has a great deal of merit.
When you take God and the bible out of the equationn, We have marriage, so that males are not cuckholded. Men would not be good hunters and gathers or fathers for the little males and females in the tribe if they thought they were supporting somones elses boys who might someday take their place, or not feed them when they were old. According to some solid thought we have marriage because males wanted to be sure who was having their children.
You see Gordon it has been the males way to keep the females in line. (now I do not necesarily endorse this line of thinking, but I do think it has more merit than your shoot from the groin type thought)
Wow and you should read more biology and evolutionary psychology books! Its the women restraining the men why marriage was 'invented'. For your own recreation as men, being capable of knocking up 10.000 women, do you really care to stay with one? Hell no, knock 10.000 up, half of your babies will die, 4/5 will be suckers (or less), but you keep 1000 good healthy strong sons&daughters.
Now for the female; You can maybe get 20 children MAX, and you are vulnerable and weak, and want you and your offspring to be protected and taken care of, hence the marriage which binds the man.
That, my friend, is the other side of the medallion on the marriage stories.
Tiki
I am not forcing anything on them. Let them go to Nevada. And if they want a prostitute every night, let them move there. And let them take their troubles families with them...Quote from tikipoki:
The point is not to force a lifestyle on people. The point is that people shouldnt have a lifestyle forced upon them.
Tiki
Again you confuse consenting adults and children.
peace
axeman
peace
axeman
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
This is an empty argument. Are we not a free country because we don't allow child pornography? Of course not! Child pornography is detrimental to kids. So is prostitution.
Or are you seriously arguing that prostitution is good for families?
Quote from ShoeshineBoy:
This is an empty argument. Are we not a free country because we don't allow child pornography? Of course not! Child pornography is detrimental to kids. So is prostitution.
Or are you seriously arguing that prostitution is good for families?
Childporn is porn without mutual consent (childporn = with kids under the age of consent, duh.), we are talking about sex under mutual consent to start off with.
How can prostitution be detrimental to kids if
1) the kids dont prostitute
2) the kids dont visit a prostitute
??
Aside from that, do you think gambling & drinking are good for families? Do you think that violent tv is good for families? Do you think MacDonalds is good for families (god kids are fat these days!) ? Do you think living in LA is good for kids (good for a smokers cancer maybe, but you know what im aiming at)?
do you think we should keep kids weak by protecting them before they plunge into the real world, or do you think its better to give them a realistic view of the world, tell them about it, educate them, and then send them in knowing what they could meet?
Tiki
Shoe... you are confusing your opponents CLAIM that
women should have a RIGHT to be a prostitute, and them
thinking that its actually a good idea.
I would NOT want my daughter being a prostitute for
MANY rational reasons...disease, social repercussions, etc...
But a consenting adult SHOULD have the right
to be a prostitute. Big difference.
You and the government do NOT have the right to tell
ME what I can do with my body. I am NOT your property OR
the governments.
peace
axeman
women should have a RIGHT to be a prostitute, and them
thinking that its actually a good idea.
I would NOT want my daughter being a prostitute for
MANY rational reasons...disease, social repercussions, etc...
But a consenting adult SHOULD have the right
to be a prostitute. Big difference.
You and the government do NOT have the right to tell
ME what I can do with my body. I am NOT your property OR
the governments.
peace
axeman