Mark Fishers - ACD System from "The Logical trader"

[Hombre]

Quote from Reaver:

Not trying to be dense, but what's the point of writing the book then?

That's like publishing a book containing a system...then saying..."oh err...if you use this system you will get killed, but I still wanted to write a book about this system and this way you can create a new system..."

That's great and all, but why publish a book at all?

I don't use ACD and am not really interested in it, as there are many ways to skin a cat and I don't think his ideas are really any better than what I've come up with for my own trading, frankly. Not being arrogant, just stating that I am confident in my method.

I have just heard a lot of people say that Fisher presents a flawed system and spends an entire book talking about it, only to say you're essentially an idiot if you use the system as is....no need to write a book then.

Just slightly confused as to the point of writing the book in the first place only to repeat the same old tired concept that you must create your own system .

What happened was that after writting the book the author realized that he gave out all his research and practical experience .
After all the inevitable editing was done, what was left was published.
I believe that author was selling the breakout values of different markets in the past as a separate service.

 

[WinSum]

Quote from Maverick74:


Over the last two years, my partner and I have spent a lot of time building on the ACD methodology. My partner deserves all the credit for the software he developed for it on TradeStation which I believe is second to none.

It's a shame that there are very little discussions on Tradestation Forum on ACD Methodolgy. Most of the threads on Tradestation Forum is basically someone asking for the EZ Language code on Opening Range Breakout.

It would be nice if they have more ppl willing to discuss the more advance topics on ACD Methodolgy.

 

[MJUK]

Quote from Maverick74:

I have spent the majority of the last 2 years working on the ACD approach to trading. I have taken Fisher's method apart and re-built it to suit both index, stock, and currency trading. I have met with Mark and was going to go into business with him and my business partner to start an ACD mentorship program.

As many of you know, I run a prop group in Chicago and was getting tired of traders blowing out and losing money. Teaching new guys ACD was a very methodical and disciplined approach to trading. I would not teach guys anything else.

The mentorship program never really took off because as I discovered it takes an immense amount of time on teach guy to really get them to be a sucessful trader. As the old saying goes, you can't teach discipline.

I am proud to say the two guys that I really spent a lot of time with teaching the method to, one has turned into an excellent trader who is profitable, the other is a breakeven trader. That guy is a former engineer in his 40's though with no trading experience.

Over the last two years, my partner and I have spent a lot of time building on the ACD methodology. My partner deserves all the credit for the software he developed for it on TradeStation which I believe is second to none.

Now before people start asking questions about how we are making it work and what we are doing, let me just say that we have spent way too much time developing this to just chat about it on message boards. I'm not trying to be a prick about it, I just don't want to go into details about it here.

We chose to just keep it in our office and under our labratory. We have found the best way to collaborate on work of this nature is in person in an office setting.

I'm very proud of what we have done with it so far. I highly reccomend "The Logical Trader" book. Everything you need to build a sound and robust trading methodology is in that book. As I pointed out before, you cannot simply take the material in that book and trade it. That is not how Mark wrote the book. As he himself told me, anyone that simply reads that book and tries to trade it, will get killed.

I am starting to record the ACD behavior in my trading logs. If I see a significant pattern developing between wins or losses and a certain ACD set-up I'll try to integrate it further.

At the moment, however, I have a profitable system with a positive expectancy; so why fix something that's not broken!

Out of interest, do you have any statistical data on ACD set-ups when trading crude - i.e. what % an A up or down or C up or down etc work and what is the average win - loss on each set-up?

 

[Pa(b)st Prime]

I used my own opening range breakout system in the Bond pit. Years before I'd heard of ACD or Fisher. The premise is simple. On the opening bell the market has a range of x. By the end of the day the range will be 20x. The goal is to "discover" which direction the range will expand.

In my own particular case the initial results were outstanding. At one point my account went from 2k to over a million in several months. Of course I was using jackass position sizing which caused it's own problems. It's always a bit easier in terms of both liquidity and emotion to flip 5 lots back and forth than 300 lots. The biggest degradation in performance though was caused by the increased importance of price discovery derived by overseas markets. Back "in the day" before Asia and Europe were trading our markets 24/7 electronically, the U.S. open was of paramount importance. Naturally there were easier to identify order imbalances back then. These days by the time RTH trading commences the market has a better idea of fair value. Much more chop than breakout. Plus on the screen one needs to be lightning quick in mindlessly flipping from long to short to long. Commissions, slippage and human frailty are all negative inputs.

Just the same being cognizant of the opening range is one of a zillion things one needs to consider each session. Fading clean O/R breakouts is a low percentage play.....

 

[Reaver]

Quote from Maverick74:

I won't speak for Mark but the book was written a few years back and the market has changed a lot since then. Let me also correct my use of the word system as it's not a "system". I like to call it a methodology or an approach to trading. A system is too rigid with strict rules that simply cannot work in all markets across all time frames.

An approach is different. An approach is just a basic structure that is setup and allows the user to input their own experience and ideas. Every trader is different. And every trader has their own unique personality. A trader must stay true to who they are and trade in such a way to extract maximum benefit.

For example, in his book, in the back Mark has trader interviews where they all talk about using the ACD method in their own way which is very different from each other.

As you know Reaver, there is no such thing as a "formula" or "system" that is going to make money. Even when we think we have a system and can show our own trading results as "proof" that our "system" works, in the end, there is a "Reaver" footprint that makes it work. It might be subtle, or it might be obvious. It's the same with athletes, artists, etc.

I'm not trying to sell anything here, just giving my two cents. Trading is all about discipline and the ACD approach focuses on discipline. There are many ways to skin a cat as you said.

I definitely see where you're coming from. Thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant.

 

[smilingsynic]

Quote from Reaver:


I have just heard a lot of people say that Fisher presents a flawed system and spends an entire book talking about it, only to say you're essentially an idiot if you use the system as is....no need to write a book then.

Just slightly confused as to the point of writing the book in the first place only to repeat the same old tired concept that you must create your own system .

Even flawed systems have money-making components. Fisher's book presents principles, not really a system.

An able trader who uses ORB principles with discretion would do better over the long haul than would a ORB "black box".

 

[Nanook]

Quote from Maverick74:

I have spent the majority of the last 2 years working on the ACD approach to trading. I have taken Fisher's method apart and re-built it to suit both index, stock, and currency trading. I have met with Mark and was going to go into business with him and my business partner to start an ACD mentorship program.

More info here: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/technical/04/032404.asp

Quote from Maverick74:I'm very proud of what we have done with it so far. I highly reccomend "The Logical Trader" book.

Book: http://www.amazon.com/Logical-Trader-Mark-B-Fisher/dp/0471215511

 

[zameskliffard]

After reading the book, It seemd ACD could be a good frame woork. But the book does not specifies even the logic or concept behind A values and C values as to what is the rational behind these numbers.

CAN ANY ONE ATTEMPT TO DESCRIBE THIS ????


Can any one mention the logic as to how these values are detrmined ?

The book also provides hundreds of pages of data at the end without even mentioning as to what is the the relevance of each item in line item of mountain of Data.

 

[ssg10]

This book is a gem... It's not a system. You gotta know how to trade to use this. But, if you understand completely, it's how big money is made. Definitely not for novices. Must have your own system and use ACD as a guidance.

 

[mushinseeker]

As u study ACd, never forget that the main practitioners of ACD were floor traders who pay very very little in commission when they flip back and forth from A up to A down ,etc. Furthermore, the post of Pabst regading the evolution of RTH to 24/7 has a pretty material dilutive effect of this as well as other opening range b/out systems.