Marines killed Iraqis ‘in cold blood’

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

The lens sees the truth.

What you are suggesting is that there is a reasonable and justifiable explanation for what the lens sees.

Look, we are supposed to be the good guys.....

Quote from g222:

War has never been pretty. Nor has it ever been just in the sparing of civilian casualties. The bombs that fell on Britain, France, Italy, Germany, Japan, Vietnam and Iraq did not discriminate between civilian and combatant. Unfortunately, this is what happens in war. Soldiers, too, die from friendly fire. This is what happens in war.

What also happens in war is that those who sit in the safety of their homes, thousands of miles removed from the battleground, dictate to the soldier the what, why, how, when and where of his every act ... and pass judgement on his every act without regard to the mitigating circumstances of the moment. Our courts place more weight on mitigating circumstances when passing sentence on a violent criminal than we, the public, afford the soldier. But when that soldier happens upon the sight of one of his brothers hanging naked and disemboweled from a tree, there's a chance his judgement might be affected when next he meets an enemy combatant.

A soldier, enduring what seems like and eternity of concussionary impacts from rpg's and watching round after round rip thru the flesh of his comrades, all coming from enemy combatants dressed in civilian garb ... just might reach that point where his judgement falters and directs his fire where he shouldn't - hitting civilians or even his fellow soldiers.

A soldier, hearing a burst from an ak up ahead, sees a brother fall ... raises his m-60 and fires a burst into the enemy combatant. His unit approaches their fallen enemy with caution, disarms him and only then discovers that their fallen foe was a young teenager.

A photo taken after any of these events depicts no mitigating circumstances because a lens sees only what is in front of it. And if published back home, so many of us - just like the lens - see only what's in front of our eyes without regard to those moments/days preceeding that picture.

Cold-blooded murder in a battle theatre should not be condoned any more that at home. But our rush to judge the suspected soldier should be tempered as much as our rush to judge any suspected civilian back home.

 

[g222]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

The lens sees the truth.

What you are suggesting is that there is a reasonable and justifiable explanation for what the lens sees.

Look, we are supposed to be the good guys.....

Yes, the lens does see the truth - the truth of a moment frozen in time. But it doesn't see the mitigating circumstances - if any - leading up to that moment.

I'm not suggesting that there is a reasonable and justifiable explanation for what the lens sees, but rather that there may be mitigating circumstances involved. Maybe not. But let's give the benefit of the doubt.

The loss of Allied lives due to friendly fire and those acts already proven to have been commited by US soldiers represent a number of isolated incidents. I don't believe that they make us the bad guys.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

What doubt?

There are accusations.

Now let the courts decide, or whitewash, as the military is so prone to do....

We are dependent on the military, yet they have a history of lies and propaganda.

Or do we forget the fiascos with Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch?

Quote from g222:

Yes, the lens does see the truth - the truth of a moment frozen in time. But it doesn't see the mitigating circumstances - if any - leading up to that moment.

I'm not suggesting that there is a reasonable and justifiable explanation for what the lens sees, but rather that there may be mitigating circumstances involved. Maybe not. But let's give the benefit of the doubt.

The loss of Allied lives due to friendly fire and those acts already proven to have been commited by US soldiers represent a number of isolated incidents. I don't believe that they make us the bad guys.

 

[g222]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

What doubt?

There are accusations.

Now let the courts decide, or whitewash, as the military is so prone to do....

We are dependent on the military, yet they have a history of lies and propaganda.

Or do we forget the fiascos with Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch?

Agreed on all counts.

 

[canyonman00]

Curious. There are in excess of 100,000 troops in the theatre. Would you let the actions of say 50, color your opinion of the whole? If so, how can I ever NOT claim white folks to be supportive of slavery? How can the white race not be completely labeled for its bad acts throughout history? The democratic party opposed the civil rights legislation. Should we not look at all democrats as wanting all minorities to be disadvantaged based on that original position?

I don't think the blanket of US (not United States but "us") as good or bad guys is appropriate. I think the term is/was "only" for analogies. But we need to come away from easy explanations and start to look into the deeper complexities that make the fight necessary. There are losers in war on both sides. The war does not become unjust. The war does not shine a beacon of excellence either. War really is hell, and it ain't nice.

It's expensive in life, capital, opinions, and love. We really do need to appreciate the freedom that war "CAN" bring. And we should pray its quick, and complete, fade into the history that details human growth.

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

What doubt?

There are accusations.

Now let the courts decide, or whitewash, as the military is so prone to do....

We are dependent on the military, yet they have a history of lies and propaganda.

Or do we forget the fiascos with Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch?

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Here is the problem though.

It may be only a few, but does the upper level management ever take any responsibility?

They act as it never happens, as if they never gave the orders....which we all know is BS...

The right wing spins this of course, as they have done ever since Kerry pointed out what was happening in Vietnam. Kerry wasn't blaming those who were just following orders, he was blaming the politicians and the generals.

When do we ever see the generals saying it was their fault, or the politicians?

We all know war is an ugly business, and in the heat of battle men do things that they wouldn't do normally, but it is the power behind all of this which give the US a bad name, they hide in shadows and are as corrupt as hell.

Quote from canyonman00:

Curious. There are in excess of 100,000 troops in the theatre. Would you let the actions of say 50, color your opinion of the whole? If so, how can I ever NOT claim white folks to be supportive of slavery? How can the white race not be completely labeled for its bad acts throughout history? The democratic party opposed the civil rights legislation. Should we not look at all democrats as wanting all minorities to be disadvantaged based on that original position?

I don't think the blanket of US (not United States but "us") as good or bad guys is appropriate. I think the term is/was "only" for analogies. But we need to come away from easy explanations and start to look into the deeper complexities that make the fight necessary. There are losers in war on both sides. The war does not become unjust. The war does not shine a beacon of excellence either. War really is hell, and it ain't nice.

It's expensive in life, capital, opinions, and love. We really do need to appreciate the freedom that war "CAN" bring. And we should pray its quick, and complete, fade into the history that details human growth.

 

[AAAintheBeltway]

Apparently three commanders were relieved of duty. In the military that is the equivalent of having your career terminated.

 

[canyonman00]

There are only a few racists too! Do you ever take responsibility? Can I blame you for the ills? Of course I can! Can I say you sanction bad behavior? Yes, I can. But that does not make me right.

You act as though you (personally) know that the orders came from the very top. Not just high up, but the very top. We all know that is BS...

The left spins this of course, as they have done ever since the press pointed out that Clinton could have avoided all this before Monica became an issue. Clinton wasn't blaming the press, he was blaming republicans for meddling in his personal life.

When do we ever see any politician saying that any poor legislation was their fault, or the military?

We all know politics is about power, and in the face of losing any many of them will do just about anything. And rather than admit their short they would cower in the shadows claiming political privilege immunity.

As you see, the argument can be played correctly from either side. The question is, when are we the people going to stand together to get the complete story without their intervention and sway. And more importantly, understand that it is ultimately our responsibility for their laxity!

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Here is the problem though.

It may be only a few, but does the upper level management ever take any responsibility?

They act as it never happens, as if they never gave the orders....which we all know is BS...

The right wing spins this of course, as they have done ever since Kerry pointed out what was happening in Vietnam. Kerry wasn't blaming those who were just following orders, he was blaming the politicians and the generals.

When do we ever see the generals saying it was their fault, or the politicians?

We all know war is an ugly business, and in the heat of battle men do things that they wouldn't do normally, but it is the power behind all of this which give the US a bad name, they hide in shadows and are as corrupt as hell.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Uhhh, I don't give orders to racists.

Doh!

The buck stops where?

At the buck private, of course....sure it does.

Sorry mate, but your argument is full of shit....

Quote from canyonman00:

There are only a few racists too! Do you ever take responsibility? Can I blame you for the ills? Of course I can! Can I say you sanction bad behavior? Yes, I can. But that does not make me right.

You act as though you (personally) know that the orders came from the very top. Not just high up, but the very top. We all know that is BS...

The left spins this of course, as they have done ever since the press pointed out that Clinton could have avoided all this before Monica became an issue. Clinton wasn't blaming the press, he was blaming republicans for meddling in his personal life.

When do we ever see any politician saying that any poor legislation was their fault, or the military?

We all know politics is about power, and in the face of losing any many of them will do just about anything. And rather than admit their short they would cower in the shadows claiming political privilege immunity.

As you see, the argument can be played correctly from either side. The question is, when are we the people going to stand together to get the complete story without their intervention and sway. And more importantly, understand that it is ultimately our responsibility for their laxity!

 

[canyonman00]

No more shit than you. You can give out orders. Whether or not they have any impact can be your only stance here. The buck never was anywhere to stop. Again, cliche and anecdotal responses on your part. I've learned this about you.

The final responsibility can be that of anyone who wishes to take responsibility which we all go lacking in in many instances. We tend to party represent and then claim lack of personal ability to make a difference. When one on the left screws up there is soft handed justice just as when the right must punish its own.

There is very little difference in either side and its time that you start to realize this. Most of these Bozo's (sorry Bozo) have limited ability to execute their positions. They just happened to be the winner in a race containing a piss poor field of candidates. Competence was not a requirement for the job. None of us elected them to fill the positions on the various committees. When they were elected, that was not a criterion for review. Why are we acting surprised when we have such lame policies, legislation, and results?

Oh, and it ain't party dependent either!

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Uhhh, I don't give orders to racists.

Doh!

The buck stops where?

At the buck private, of course....sure it does.

Sorry mate, but your argument is full of shit....