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many religious meat eaters don't care about killing animals
- Thread starter Weeble
- Start date
STOP EATING MEAT.
AND GET SOME PROTEIN POWDER IF YOU WANT MORE PROTEIN.
THAT'S WHAT I DO.
I'M HUGE AND I DON'T EAT MEAT.
ROCK
AND GET SOME PROTEIN POWDER IF YOU WANT MORE PROTEIN.
THAT'S WHAT I DO.
I'M HUGE AND I DON'T EAT MEAT.
ROCK
jem,
Thanks for your courteous reply. I am aware this thread's topic is Meat & religion(lol) but I would like to respond to the particular points you have raised.
I think it is good practice to consider the context as well as specific wording when responding to or making a point of view. As a student of law, I assume and trust you would endeavour to do similar, although so far I don't see that you are. I responded specifically to 2 points which you originally made and tried to keep them within the context they reside.
There is no "incredible revision" in what I said and I think it unwise to assume my arguments originate from a place where such revisions might be found. Others studied at Law School, others have quite a clear view on what factual history states, especially when applying an approach unfettered by religious pre conditioning.
I recoil from your statement which suggests... "our country was founded on ideals fostered by the Christian religion"... when the christian religion also fostered the ideal that the earth was flat, thus making it 'against God's will' for the land which would be called America to even exist - let alone be founded.
"It was because of Christianity and the differences among the sects that America choose to let people worship as they desired."
No it was not. It was the Founding Fathers who ensured that freedom should NOT be attributed to any religious sect including the christian one - and that they should therefore be free to worship how or whatever they want... UNDER Law.
The crux of your argument was as follows:
1.You stated that this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals ( I appreciate you have since rescinded this description, although it is recognized as a valid name for what is basically and historically representing the formation of christianity, from both Judaism and Christianity). You referred to words of the Declaration of Independence to support your claim.
It is without question that The Founding Fathers were NOT prepared to stipulate ANY theistic (living gods) viewpoint into the Declaration of Independence. It is also quite clear and evident that they were NOT going to mix religion and matters of State, furthermore they were NOT going to base upon christianity the 'fostering of America' (your supposition). If they wanted to they would have simply stated "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..." God our Father - or in addition and to make it christian - and His Son Jesus Christ or Lord. They did not.
You may also note as I pointed out previously they stipulate to A Creator not THE Creator God.
I posted quotes from Jefferson and Adams to which you have responded with further quotes and I agree hurling these back and forth may not lead to the speediest conclusions, except to say there is contradiction in them. But contradiction only supports the point that America by its people, was not based or founded on a clear and particular connection to ANY or one religion. Otherwise there would be few or no contradiction.
Original settlers were most certainly religious, but fleeing from religious persecution, they sailed the Atlantic Ocean in order to practice their MANY faiths (presbyterian catholic baptist christian protestant methodist anglican etc etc) freely.
That the christian faith in all its many forms, sects split offs and whatever, may have become preponderant( this is arguable), is not the issue and does not alter the fact that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, is NOT a religious concept. In the same way neither is kndness fairness love truth logic or law, which are I further suggest, similar ideals which you would also attempt to ascribe to some christian religion or other.
Thanks for your courteous reply. I am aware this thread's topic is Meat & religion(lol) but I would like to respond to the particular points you have raised.
I think it is good practice to consider the context as well as specific wording when responding to or making a point of view. As a student of law, I assume and trust you would endeavour to do similar, although so far I don't see that you are. I responded specifically to 2 points which you originally made and tried to keep them within the context they reside.
There is no "incredible revision" in what I said and I think it unwise to assume my arguments originate from a place where such revisions might be found. Others studied at Law School, others have quite a clear view on what factual history states, especially when applying an approach unfettered by religious pre conditioning.
I recoil from your statement which suggests... "our country was founded on ideals fostered by the Christian religion"... when the christian religion also fostered the ideal that the earth was flat, thus making it 'against God's will' for the land which would be called America to even exist - let alone be founded.
"It was because of Christianity and the differences among the sects that America choose to let people worship as they desired."
No it was not. It was the Founding Fathers who ensured that freedom should NOT be attributed to any religious sect including the christian one - and that they should therefore be free to worship how or whatever they want... UNDER Law.
The crux of your argument was as follows:
1.You stated that this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian ideals ( I appreciate you have since rescinded this description, although it is recognized as a valid name for what is basically and historically representing the formation of christianity, from both Judaism and Christianity). You referred to words of the Declaration of Independence to support your claim.
It is without question that The Founding Fathers were NOT prepared to stipulate ANY theistic (living gods) viewpoint into the Declaration of Independence. It is also quite clear and evident that they were NOT going to mix religion and matters of State, furthermore they were NOT going to base upon christianity the 'fostering of America' (your supposition). If they wanted to they would have simply stated "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator..." God our Father - or in addition and to make it christian - and His Son Jesus Christ or Lord. They did not.
You may also note as I pointed out previously they stipulate to A Creator not THE Creator God.
I posted quotes from Jefferson and Adams to which you have responded with further quotes and I agree hurling these back and forth may not lead to the speediest conclusions, except to say there is contradiction in them. But contradiction only supports the point that America by its people, was not based or founded on a clear and particular connection to ANY or one religion. Otherwise there would be few or no contradiction.
Original settlers were most certainly religious, but fleeing from religious persecution, they sailed the Atlantic Ocean in order to practice their MANY faiths (presbyterian catholic baptist christian protestant methodist anglican etc etc) freely.
That the christian faith in all its many forms, sects split offs and whatever, may have become preponderant( this is arguable), is not the issue and does not alter the fact that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness, is NOT a religious concept. In the same way neither is kndness fairness love truth logic or law, which are I further suggest, similar ideals which you would also attempt to ascribe to some christian religion or other.
Stu creator with a big "C" is consistent with the practice of lord with a big"L" meaning god. I am not sure you have put your arguments in the proper context. As far as I am concerned without the contextual evidence your argument about the deist interpretation of the declaration is conjecture.
Now in my context and my conjecture---- it was Jefferson's compromise with the guys who wanted it to say God. He capitalized "C"creator even though he hated doing it.
If you actually look into the history of the flat argument it may not have been as you say. Besides that, it was (according to the common understanding which may not be accurate) the Catholic church keeping science down and it was the protestant reformers who wanted to spread out science and understanding. You are recoiling from the wrong group.
Again I am talking from a history of Western Civilization context.
You have argued some of the founders were not Christian. (I say only a few of the top 50 may not have been but that this argument misses the point.) The Christians let non-Christians be non Christians. This is a pretty big deal even today.
You have not argued that America was not founded based on the traditions of J----- Christian line of thought. Which was my statement. We can disagree as to the founding fathers wording. You can not argue with the concepts. Freedom of Speech. Freedom to Govern themselves. Freedom to Worship as they please.
I am asking you did this come from Mecca, did it come from India, did it come from China. This is what I have trying to have you address. This is the contribution of Christianity and America (with the study of the ancient Greeks) to the world. Christianity did this in America. Yes or No.
I just want you to point to noted scholars and let us weigh the argument. America founded on deism (or whatever you want) vs America founded on Judea Christian principles (by the way this is much different than saying America is protestant). I mean I went to public schools and a non religious college and studied many different disciplines and I can not accept that everything I read about Western Civ and the founding of America was wrong. Even though most if not all of what I learned was written by academics who were not biased in favor of religion. Perhaps I should have been born in the 80s and then I would understand all of this revision of history stuff.
Now in my context and my conjecture---- it was Jefferson's compromise with the guys who wanted it to say God. He capitalized "C"creator even though he hated doing it.
If you actually look into the history of the flat argument it may not have been as you say. Besides that, it was (according to the common understanding which may not be accurate) the Catholic church keeping science down and it was the protestant reformers who wanted to spread out science and understanding. You are recoiling from the wrong group.
Again I am talking from a history of Western Civilization context.
You have argued some of the founders were not Christian. (I say only a few of the top 50 may not have been but that this argument misses the point.) The Christians let non-Christians be non Christians. This is a pretty big deal even today.
You have not argued that America was not founded based on the traditions of J----- Christian line of thought. Which was my statement. We can disagree as to the founding fathers wording. You can not argue with the concepts. Freedom of Speech. Freedom to Govern themselves. Freedom to Worship as they please.
I am asking you did this come from Mecca, did it come from India, did it come from China. This is what I have trying to have you address. This is the contribution of Christianity and America (with the study of the ancient Greeks) to the world. Christianity did this in America. Yes or No.
I just want you to point to noted scholars and let us weigh the argument. America founded on deism (or whatever you want) vs America founded on Judea Christian principles (by the way this is much different than saying America is protestant). I mean I went to public schools and a non religious college and studied many different disciplines and I can not accept that everything I read about Western Civ and the founding of America was wrong. Even though most if not all of what I learned was written by academics who were not biased in favor of religion. Perhaps I should have been born in the 80s and then I would understand all of this revision of history stuff.
i'm not a strict vegetarian. our family is roughly 90% veggie, but we do eat some meat. it is always kosher/hallal/freerange/organic/whatever meat and normally from smaller animals like lamb/goat rather than destructo-beats like cattle or pigs.
personally i consider eating meat a moral compromise - something self-aware had to die for me to have that meal - and try to act accordingly. i have no real issue with people who eat more meat than us: if someone wanted to Atkins their way through life on ethically-raised steaks, i wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
when discussions about meat-eating come up i'd far rather talk about the environmental impact of the meal than a more-abstract moral discussion. simple fact is i just want my daughter to have a chance at enjoying this planet we call home in the same way i've gotten to enjoy.
somebody mentioned dominion over animals: dominion means, amongst other things, responsibility for. if i thought a meeting at the pearly gates was in my future, ain't no way i'd want to go into that meeting knowing i was responsible for killing the last whale.
that would be some serious karmic weight.
personally i consider eating meat a moral compromise - something self-aware had to die for me to have that meal - and try to act accordingly. i have no real issue with people who eat more meat than us: if someone wanted to Atkins their way through life on ethically-raised steaks, i wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
when discussions about meat-eating come up i'd far rather talk about the environmental impact of the meal than a more-abstract moral discussion. simple fact is i just want my daughter to have a chance at enjoying this planet we call home in the same way i've gotten to enjoy.
somebody mentioned dominion over animals: dominion means, amongst other things, responsibility for. if i thought a meeting at the pearly gates was in my future, ain't no way i'd want to go into that meeting knowing i was responsible for killing the last whale.
that would be some serious karmic weight.
DAMIR00-
the quickest way to stop ingesting antibiotics with your meat and growth hormones with our cheese is to get rid of the subsidies that allow such production to undercut the price of healthier products. the current rules on use of federal grazing lands alone is a subsidy of roughly 1/3 the final cost of the product.
that's socialism at its worst: not only a subsidy, but a subsidy that prices a superior, healthier alternative out of the market.
________________________________________________
You haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about and cannot provide VERIFIABLE STATISTICS to back up what you claim.
the quickest way to stop ingesting antibiotics with your meat and growth hormones with our cheese is to get rid of the subsidies that allow such production to undercut the price of healthier products. the current rules on use of federal grazing lands alone is a subsidy of roughly 1/3 the final cost of the product.
that's socialism at its worst: not only a subsidy, but a subsidy that prices a superior, healthier alternative out of the market.
________________________________________________
You haven't the slightest idea of what you are talking about and cannot provide VERIFIABLE STATISTICS to back up what you claim.
Quote from damir00:
i'm not a strict vegetarian. our family is roughly 90% veggie, but we do eat some meat. it is always kosher/hallal/freerange/organic/whatever meat and normally from smaller animals like lamb/goat rather than destructo-beats like cattle or pigs.
personally i consider eating meat a moral compromise - something self-aware had to die for me to have that meal - and try to act accordingly. i have no real issue with people who eat more meat than us: if someone wanted to Atkins their way through life on ethically-raised steaks, i wouldn't lose much sleep over it.
when discussions about meat-eating come up i'd far rather talk about the environmental impact of the meal than a more-abstract moral discussion. simple fact is i just want my daughter to have a chance at enjoying this planet we call home in the same way i've gotten to enjoy.
somebody mentioned dominion over animals: dominion means, amongst other things, responsibility for. if i thought a meeting at the pearly gates was in my future, ain't no way i'd want to go into that meeting knowing i was responsible for killing the last whale.
that would be some serious karmic weight.
No offense to your beliefs, but could you elaborate on the kosher meat? Have you seen HOW they make it? very cruel and inhumane....I think we should be more humane with the animals although, when asking a cow how he'd rather die, Im sure he doesn't feel relieved that it will be through a guillotine
Back on the subject where are the ethically raised meats and do they cost much more. How do they differ from environmental concerns.
I know when I ate hot dogs I liked hebrew national. And I like kosher tropicana during the holiday times. But are kosher meats ethically raised by environmental standards?
Is free range chicken more ethical.
What do the radicals and the moderates say on this issue. Assuming I am going to consume meat, where should I get it and how much more should I pay.
I know when I ate hot dogs I liked hebrew national. And I like kosher tropicana during the holiday times. But are kosher meats ethically raised by environmental standards?
Is free range chicken more ethical.
What do the radicals and the moderates say on this issue. Assuming I am going to consume meat, where should I get it and how much more should I pay.
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/
from a jewish perspective the founding fathers - and the nation they created - were hardly christian at all. keep in mind that at the time much of christian europe had been - and continued to - brutalize jews. while segments of american society have flirted with such notions, in general the great american experiment has truly been a golden age for judaism.
i cannot think of a christian nation that can say the same.
from a jewish perspective the founding fathers - and the nation they created - were hardly christian at all. keep in mind that at the time much of christian europe had been - and continued to - brutalize jews. while segments of american society have flirted with such notions, in general the great american experiment has truly been a golden age for judaism.
i cannot think of a christian nation that can say the same.