Manafort just shot himself in the foot

Two interesting aspects: 1. Manafort can go to jail for State law violations (Virginia) even if pardoned by Trump. He hasn't been tried on State charges, but if he is pardoned, I imagine that's coming.
2. Normally, in all cases I know of, when a President pardons someone the person he pardons was convicted, or might be convicted (In the case of Nixon, who received a pre-emptive pardon), for a crime the President himself had nothing to do with. It now looks quite certain that some of Manafort's federal crimes may have ensnared the President as well, or vice versa

If the President pardons Manafort, a more or less blanket pardon, for crimes that he, the President, is also culpable, then I would imagine Manafort might be made to testify under oath in regard to these same crimes. Manafort could not logically avoid testifying against Trump, because he himself would be in no further jeopardy. ( i.e., It seems this would be an instance where he has foregone his 5th amendment right when he accepted the pardon.) If manafort refused to answer, the Judge could order him to, or jail him. If he lied he could be subject to a new charge of perjury, that it would seem could not be covered by the previous pardon.

Nixon would have thought all of these scenarios through, and perhaps that's why he did not pardon his co-conspirators, even though it was manifestly unfair that they should all go to prison, as they did, while he went to his San Clemente Home to enjoy a piña colada on the patio. (Nixon would have had to pardon his co-conspirators before resigning, and apparently before he had assurances of, or a pardon from Ford. That must have been Nixon's dilemma. Unlike Trump, Nixon proved to be loyal to his co-conspirators right up to the point where he was forced to choose between potential jail or potential piña coladas.)

It seems that pardoning a co-conspirator could have undesired consequences from the viewpoint of the one issuing the pardon. I am, therefore, not at all convinced Trump will pardon Manafort. Manafort knows all about Trump's worst crimes involving Russians. Crimes that might well land Trump in Prison once he is out of office. Pence could Pardon Trump, if Trump resigns. If Trump thinks he'll be prosecuted after leaving office, he will try to work one of his "deals" with Pence, and then resign. But is Pence too ambitious for that, knowing what happened to Ford? Looks like Trump's fate may rest in Pence's hands, and Pence is a certified dumbo. No wonder Trump seems "out of sorts" lately. The only saving grace here is that in any case Trump and Pence can enjoy Bible study together because Trump's favorite books in the Bible are "all of them." Although Pence may have to take the Presidential limo to the jail for their study sessions.

Another problem for a lifetime gangster like Trump is not only has he violated federal laws, but he has violated bouquet state laws for which a Presidential pardon is useless. Personally, I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for either Manafort's or Trump's chances. But will the snarly Mr. Trump go down biting, kicking and screaming lies? You betcha! He'll remain dangerous until the last snap on the straight jacket is buckled.
 
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This is why you need to go to law school and spend a few years practicing before you give legal opinions.
After a while you develop a checklist.

If you practice Federal law... before you give your opinion you typically present a caveat. We may have to do a state law analysis as well. .

Had you had such a mental checklist...
You would have said to yourself... hey wait a minute...

I (Piezoe) just wrote that Mannafort would still be in jeopardy via state law.
Therefore, if Mannafort is still in legal jeopardy he could of course still take the fifth.




piezoe said:
Two interesting aspects: 1. Manafort can go to jail for State law violations (Virginia) even if pardoned by Trump. He hasn't been tried on State charges, but if he is pardoned, I imagine that's coming.
2. Normally, in all cases I know of, when a President pardons someone the person he pardons was convicted, or might be convicted (In the case of Nixon, who received a pre-emptive pardon), for a crime the President himself had nothing to do with. It now looks quite certain that some of Manafort's federal crimes may have ensnared the President as well, or vice versa

If the President pardons Manafort, a more or less blanket pardon, for crimes that he, the President, is also culpable, then I would imagine Manafort might be made to testify under oath in regard to these same crimes. Manafort could not logically avoid testifying against Trump, because he himself would be in no further jeopardy. ( i.e., It seems this would be an instance where he has foregone his 5th amendment right when he accepted the pardon.) If manafort refused to answer, the Judge could order him to, or jail him. If he lied he could be subject to a new charge of perjury, that it would seem could not be covered by the previous pardon.

Nixon would have thought all of these scenarios through, and perhaps that's why he did not pardon his co-conspirators, even though it was manifestly unfair that they should all go to prison, as they did, while he went to his San Clemente Home to enjoy a piña colada on the patio. (Nixon would have had to pardon his co-conspirators before resigning, and apparently before he had assurances of, or a pardon from Ford. That must have been Nixon's dilemma. Unlike Trump, Nixon proved to be loyal to his co-conspirators right up to the point where he was forced to choose between potential jail or potential piña coladas.)

It seems that pardoning a co-conspirator could have undesired consequences from the viewpoint of the one issuing the pardon. I am, therefore, not at all convinced Trump will pardon Manafort. Manafort knows all about Trump's worst crimes involving Russians. Crimes that might well land Trump in Prison once he is out of office. Pence could Pardon Trump, if Trump resigns. If Trump thinks he'll be prosecuted after leaving office, he will try to work one of his "deals" with Pence, and then resign. But is Pence too ambitious for that, knowing what happened to Ford? Looks like Trump's fate may rest in Pence's hands, and Pence is a certified dumbo. No wonder Trump seems "out of sorts" lately. The only saving grace here is that in any case Trump and Pence can enjoy Bible study together because Trump's favorite books in the Bible are "all of them." Although Pence may have to take the Presidential limo to the jail for their study sessions.

Another problem for a lifetime gangster like Trump is not only has he violated federal laws, but he has violated bouquet state laws for which a Presidential pardon is useless. Personally, I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for either Manafort's or Trump's chances. But will the snarly Mr. Trump go down biting, kicking and screaming lies? You betcha! He'll remain dangerous until the last snap on the straight jacket is buckled.
More...
 
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TJustice said:
This is why you need to go to law school and spend a few years practicing before you give legal opinions.
After a while you develop a checklist.

If you practice Federal law... before you give your opinion you typically present a caveat. We may have to do a state law analysis as well. .

Had you had such a mental checklist...
You would have said to yourself... hey wait a minute...

I (Piezoe) just wrote that Mannafort would still be in jeopardy via state law.
Therefore, if Mannafort is still in legal jeopardy he could of course still take the fifth.
More...
But haven't you forgotten something? The State charges, if and when they are brought, and they probably won't be unless he is pardoned for federal crimes, do not have to be, will not in fact be, brought for the same crimes as the federal crimes to which his pardon applies. Obviously, He would not lose his fifth amendment rights with regard to any state charges to which his pardon does not apply! Nor did I suggest such. He will only lose that right with respect to federal crimes for which he has been pardoned. For prosecutors in Virginia wanting to put Mr. Manafort behind bars it would be like choosing from the smorgasbord at the Ritz Carleton -- do I want the wild mushroom salad or do I fancy the Belgium endive more, or is it that chilled Celery Victor on escarole. There will undoubtedly be more than enough State crimes to choose from.

Had you not skipped class to play tennis on the day this was covered...

"Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974." ​

You would realize that pardons are always granted by Presidents for Federal crimes that have been, or may have been , committed in the past. It is specifically those federal crimes in which Trump and Manafort may be fellow co-conspirators, and for which Manafort could conceivably be pardoned by Trump, causing Manafort to lose his fifth amendment right, that pose special danger for Trump. Manafort would then have no 5th Amendment to hide behind. This could be a problem for Trump were he to later be indicted and tried for specific federal crimes in which a pardoned Manafort was named as a co-conspirator. I doubt Trump will pardon Manafort.

Should you ever get indicted, I hope you will call on me, to explain the law to you, and not try to act as your own council. You'd be in dire straights.

I sometimes wish you had paid more attention in class. I wouldn't have to waste time spelling these things out to you in excrucating detail while boring our brighter colleagues who catch on right away.
 
Dude is supposedly in poor health. Can't imagine why he stuck around for all this. If I had his money and connections I'd have split the scene while the getting was good. Dummy should be on some South American beach.
 
piezoe said:
Two interesting aspects: 1. Manafort can go to jail for State law violations (Virginia) even if pardoned by Trump. He hasn't been tried on State charges, but if he is pardoned, I imagine that's coming.
2. Normally, in all cases I know of, when a President pardons someone the person he pardons was convicted, or might be convicted (In the case of Nixon, who received a pre-emptive pardon), for a crime the President himself had nothing to do with. It now looks quite certain that some of Manafort's federal crimes may have ensnared the President as well, or vice versa....
More...

How prophetic that's turned out to be!!!*

__________________________
* referring specifically here to recently released, unintentional, unredacted redacted portions of the filing from Mueller's office (I believe, though it may have been from another office, or a filing released from a court) . The President appears to be in very hot water, hot enough to cause serious scalding.
 
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