LMAX price advantage measurement

[FutureScalper]

A more popular Currency Pair, EUR/USD has much tighter spreads, often
down to 0.1 PIPs, typically around 0.3 PIPs does also show some price
improvement, but this is less of a factor. This post shows that price
improvement is seen, and a Multiple Entry Incremental approach to
the trading can be effective, as can be seen in the screenshot where
we see the Average Sell price against the Average Buy price.

But any successful trading approach relies upon several key factors, where
price improvement across the spread is only one such factor. Rather than
trying to get "spread price improvement", an additional tactic is to
strike (sometimes at the Market price) when very specific conditions
are seen. Often this ability to strike in favorable conditions greatly
outweighs the value of just seeking "price improvement" through
spread liquidity (the subject of this thread).

This type of scalping relies upon a number of factors working together to give us
"an edge". Also, of course, knowing the trend of the market is always
a key factor in choosing the direction of the trades. (Analytics is also not
the subject of this thread.)

11-18 13:38:48.181 EURUSD BUY B<* (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.25249 ask: 1.25251 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfF+Y
11-18 13:38:48.580 EURUSD BUY B* (0.0)  wPI: 0.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.25242 ask: 1.25243 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfF++
11-18 13:42:57.216 EURUSD BUY B* (0.0)  wPI: 0.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.252 ask: 1.252 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfI7/
11-18 13:43:21.465 EURUSD BUY B<<<<* (5.0)  wPI: 5.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.25183 ask: 1.25188 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfJUe
11-18 13:45:34.089 EURUSD SEL *>>S (3.0)  wPI: 3.00 qty: 0.001m @ prc: 1.25239 bid: 1.25236 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfLA7
11-18 13:45:36.893 EURUSD SEL *>>S (3.0)  wPI: 3.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25239 bid: 1.25236 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfLA7
11-18 13:45:36.900 EURUSD SEL *>>>>S (5.0)  wPI: 5.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.25241 bid: 1.25236 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfLH7
11-18 13:45:48.879 EURUSD SEL *S (0.0)  wPI: 0.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.25256 bid: 1.25255 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfLRO
11-18 13:46:10.074 EURUSD SEL *>S (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.004m @ prc: 1.2526 bid: 1.25258 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfLPt
11-18 13:49:09.057 EURUSD BUY B* (1.0)  wPI: 1.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 1.25247 ask: 1.25248 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfODy
11-18 13:51:40.757 EURUSD SEL *>>>S (4.0)  wPI: 4.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 1.2529 bid: 1.25286 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfO4j
11-18 13:52:59.227 EURUSD SEL *>>>>>>>S (8.0)  wPI: 8.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 1.25316 bid: 1.25308 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfQpr
11-18 13:54:24.320 EURUSD BUY B<* (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 1.25286 ask: 1.25288 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfRlX
11-18 14:02:56.901 EURUSD SEL *>S (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25278 bid: 1.25276 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfZHq
11-18 14:03:45.909 EURUSD BUY B<<<* (4.0)  wPI: 4.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25231 ask: 1.25235 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfZek
11-18 14:13:21.147 EURUSD SEL *S (1.0)  wPI: 1.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25257 bid: 1.25256 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfeom
11-18 14:14:08.919 EURUSD SEL *>>>S (4.0)  wPI: 4.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25263 bid: 1.25259 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfe9h
11-18 14:15:58.098 EURUSD SEL *S (0.0)  wPI: 0.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25276 bid: 1.25276 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlffxI
11-18 14:17:00.671 EURUSD SEL *>S (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25309 bid: 1.25307 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfgM1
11-18 14:23:35.413 EURUSD BUY B* (1.0)  wPI: 1.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25231 ask: 1.25232 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfjAp
11-18 14:25:41.224 EURUSD BUY B<<* (3.0)  wPI: 3.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25225 ask: 1.25228 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlffHB
11-18 14:25:41.705 EURUSD BUY B* (0.0)  wPI: 0.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25218 ask: 1.25219 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlffLZ
11-18 14:25:46.428 EURUSD BUY B<* (2.0)  wPI: 2.00 qty: 0.003m @ prc: 1.25215 ask: 1.25217 LMAXoid: AAGJHQAAAAJlfjIU

A graphic representation of the last 8 trades ( 4 Sell and 4 Buy to cover) is uploaded here.

Good Trading !
HyperScalper

 

[doggyfx]

Does STP has any advantages over LMAX or vice versa? Is LMAX executes orders in house or move them on interbank. Don't see any fair trading if I even don't have an exit on interbank market..

 

[lubba]

Reading this thread truly enlighten me of how spread affect traders performance. and spread is all we need now. once, I was curious why spread change, but the decent explanation lays with spread functionality, taking into two major things, One is liquidity. The more volume flowing through the market at a given time, the narrower the spread will tend to be. The other is the expectation of volatility. If traders expect a volatile market (as in the case of data releases, interest rate announcements, etc.) the spread will widen out. as Lmax price liquidity i dont see any particular difference with ECN price, yes indeed
"oftendown to 0.1 PIPs, typically around 0.3 PIPs" we can found this spread on several brokers, but what about the commision, shouldnt we take it into consideration
here's some short comparison of lmax, only 3 brokers selected, one are where my account is, honestly I dont have an account with lmax yet, alpari is my past years company i used to trade, other are armada where my currently account with.

I also put brokers quote comparison, perhaps it's taking into consideration.
in my humble opinion, spread is a feature from our brokers, as "spread price improvement" we could do the same with our trading strategy, an adaption, some traders called "an edge"

 

[volpunter]

your numbers are completely off my several standard deviations. LMAX's spreads are on average 2.5-3 times as tight as what your table shows. Probably a paid statistic to make Alpari and Armada look better (they are by the way not real ECNs, LMAX is, and in addition Alpari and Armada mark up their spreads which LMAX does not). You are comparing apples with oranges here. Alpari and Armada are for novices who are not yet aware that they are getting royally ripped off in the fx market. Beware!!!

Reading this thread truly enlighten me of how spread affect traders performance. and spread is all we need now. once, I was curious why spread change, but the decent explanation lays with spread functionality, taking into two major things, One is liquidity. The more volume flowing through the market at a given time, the narrower the spread will tend to be. The other is the expectation of volatility. If traders expect a volatile market (as in the case of data releases, interest rate announcements, etc.) the spread will widen out. as Lmax price liquidity i dont see any particular difference with ECN price, yes indeed
"oftendown to 0.1 PIPs, typically around 0.3 PIPs" we can found this spread on several brokers, but what about the commision, shouldnt we take it into consideration
here's some short comparison of lmax, only 3 brokers selected, one are where my account is, honestly I dont have an account with lmax yet, alpari is my past years company i used to trade, other are armada where my currently account with.

I also put brokers quote comparison, perhaps it's taking into consideration.
in my humble opinion, spread is a feature from our brokers, as "spread price improvement" we could do the same with our trading strategy, an adaption, some traders called "an edge"

 

[FutureScalper]

Does STP has any advantages over LMAX or vice versa? Is LMAX executes orders in house or move them on interbank. Don't see any fair trading if I even don't have an exit on interbank market..

Hi, good question. The way I see things, in simple terms, is that in Retail Forex we moved from "Dealing Desks" to more electronic matching systems, whether they be called "ECN" or "STP" and I think LMAX is simply a further step on that evolutionary path. It's giving the "smaller trader" (the retail trader) at least 1) better retail spreads, but also 2) the ability to "compete" for counterparty liquidity. Now, the LMAX exchange, as far as I know, is the best example in which the electronic book shows literally every participant's Bids and Offers. If you look at their book at this link
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lmax-widget3/website-widget-vwap.html
You will see that even sizes of 0.1 (1k) normally the smallest trade size possible, are shown on the Book
and affect the Bid/Ask spread. So the "spread" narrows as there are more participants trying to be
Best Bidder or Best Offerer against counterparties. HAVING SAID THAT... here's the issue: If you do want to compete as a "liquidity provider", then it's much more difficult as a style of trading than simply Buying or Selling a big chunk retail, like most Forex traders do. The easy way to benefit from LMAX is to use Limit Orders for all of your orders. However, when you trade for 50 pips, who cares much about 1 pip? It's not a significant factor in your overall results. But if you are a close "scalper" trading inside a 10 pip range, then it can make a difference in your bottom line.

In conclusion, LMAX is for "specialist traders" who want 1) ability to get price improvement, and 2) narrower spreads than most exchanges, and 3) fast and stable guaranteed executions of marketable orders. Some of these characteristics are available at the most advanced Forex brokerages, but very few of them allow you to affect the spread and compete against the big Bank Market Makers. For my trading operation, as least one aspect of our trading, this cumulative effect of price improvement and other aspects makes LMAX the perfect choice. But the software platforms which make this trading effective, are not really available in the "generic" retail space, so usually custom software is required to operate using these trading styles.

HyperScalper

 

[FutureScalper]

your numbers are completely off my several standard deviations. LMAX's spreads are on average 2.5-3 times as tight as what your table shows. Probably a paid statistic to make Alpari and Armada look better (they are by the way not real ECNs, LMAX is, and in addition Alpari and Armada mark up their spreads which LMAX does not). You are comparing apples with oranges here. Alpari and Armada are for novices who are not yet aware that they are getting royally ripped off in the fx market. Beware!!!

I completely agree with volpunter's remarks. Many of my statements sound like advertising for LMAX, and I have no affiliation with them, but it represents the closest approximation to a "perfect" exchange in which every trader operates on the same "level" playing field. Most "ECN" or "STP" are vastly superior to the old rip-off "Dealing Desks" (which have not completely disappeared) but in many cases there are restrictions as to where the Retail trader can place a Limit order. Thankfully those days are disappearing. If I am Best Bidder and, at that moment, a Seller comes in to match my price, then I am the one who gets the Fill and thus I have become a "market maker" in a very small way, and have had the opportunity to be on the same terms as the "Big Boys". NOTE: this does not mean trading is "fair", only that the exchange is fair. There's nothing "fair" about multi-million dollar trading desks pushing price around, and shaking out the "little guy". But that's a completely different issue. At the "point of sale" Buying or Selling, LMAX offers a near "perfect" implementation of a fair and level playing field for All Participants. But as I've said elsewhere, for most "normal" traders, trading for 50-100 pips in their strategies, this is quite irrelevant. But for Specialist Traders, an exchange such as LMAX is the place to be, and let's hope that many others begin to offer these "fully transparent" exchanges in Forex.

HyperScalper

 

[hyperscalper]

Perhaps this graphic will help to clarify what is happening, for those who are less familiar with intra-spread scalping and the operation of a "true" exchange, of which LMAX is a good example.

HyperScalper

 

[londonkid]

your numbers are completely off my several standard deviations. LMAX's spreads are on average 2.5-3 times as tight as what your table shows. Probably a paid statistic to make Alpari and Armada look better (they are by the way not real ECNs, LMAX is, and in addition Alpari and Armada mark up their spreads which LMAX does not). You are comparing apples with oranges here. Alpari and Armada are for novices who are not yet aware that they are getting royally ripped off in the fx market. Beware!!!

well put. more understanding of the 'game' of forex is needed. rule number 1 - when a broker uses ECN and or NDD in its sales pitch that's just to confuse you. Unless your order actually goes into the book it's not an ECN. Comparing apples to oranges is precisely what he is doing here. Also spreads don't matter shit when you start trading size and you are taking liquidity. plenty of outfits will take retail flow for virtually no spread but they wont take size. GL

 

[londonkid]

Most "ECN" or "STP" are vastly superior to the old rip-off "Dealing Desks" (which have not completely disappeared) but in many cases there are restrictions as to where the Retail trader can place a Limit order. Thankfully those days are disappearing.

Well yeah. Placing a limit order with a dealing desk is essentially a buy(sell) stop in a synthetic 'market'. Placing a limit order with a genuine ECN is totally different. Dealing Desks are still doing very well in the UK from retail customers. I don't think these days are disappearing very quickly but LMAX is definitely an improvement for the retail trader.

 

[FutureScalper]

Continuing to publish preliminary test results, the following shows LMAX price improvement in GBP/JPY with a trade just taken. This may help to clarify some of the discussion on on "price improvement" or "liquidity inside the spread". Keep in mind of course, that at this stage, fairly small lot sizes are being used for testing and illustrative purposes. Liquidity is a concept highly dependent upon general market activity levels.

wPI (wholesale price improvement) below is shown in Tenths of a Pip. So, 10.0 means 1 PIP price improvement. We can see that in all 6 of the trades, 3 to Buy, and 3 to Sell, that significant price improvement, sometimes the entire spread, was gained. This shows better than anything else, that a "fair" exchange for all participants can provide significant advantages for "specialist traders" or "scalpers" like myself.

A chart graphic is shown illustrating the trade sequence. Size of 0.005 is a 5k lot size which on LMAX would be 0.5. I have chosen to show sizes in millions.

11-20 16:04:42.225 GBPJPY BUY B<<<<<<<<<* (10.0)  wPI: 10.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.468 ask: 185.478 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2Ws4
11-20 16:05:09.054 GBPJPY BUY B<<<<<<<<<* (10.0)  wPI: 10.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.417 ask: 185.427 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2Zz/
11-20 16:05:09.113 GBPJPY BUY B<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<* (21.0)  wPI: 21.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.406 ask: 185.427 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2ZqB
11-20 16:13:30.575 GBPJPY SEL *>>>>>>S (7.0)  wPI: 7.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.462 bid: 185.455 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2aWL
11-20 16:13:46.445 GBPJPY SEL *>>>>>S (6.0)  wPI: 6.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.467 bid: 185.461 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2aii
11-20 16:13:46.820 GBPJPY SEL *>>>>>>>S (8.0)  wPI: 8.00 qty: 0.005m @ prc: 185.471 bid: 185.463 LMAXoid: AAGJJQAAAAJl2aQS

HyperScalper