Let's get real about prison abuse

Quote from CharlesXT:

So what? Welcome to war. Where is your transcript of the american bodies being dragged through the streets?
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If it was no big deal, how come Rumsfeld and Bush described the abuse as "inhuman", "hard to believe", and "disgusting"? Maybe they're just liberal pussies too? Why do the vast majority of Americans and members of the armed forces agree? Could it be that they actually have some sense of decency and civilised conduct?

And what have these prisoners got to do with american bodies being dragged through the streets? I don't recall any of them being found guilty of that crime, or even charged with it. And even if they were, the punishment meted out should be judicial, not torture. In America, even serial killers aren't sentenced to be tortured.

And if child rape is ok by you, where exactly do you draw the line? Maybe you think we should just commit genocide and wipe out every Iraqi, surely that would solve the problem? Perhaps we should bring back Saddam to run the jail, I'm sure he would get confessions pretty quick?

And what about the impact on the troops serving out there, not to mention civilians? Do you think the guy who got beheaded today is glad that the prison abuse happened, and that people like you say "so what"? I'm sure Mr Berg wishes that the morons who did this stuff had stopped to think for a moment about the consequences of their actions.
 
Very well said.
I could not have said it better myself.

As a Republican, I have a problem of how this DEMOCRACY even came to the conclusion that Iraq was an "immediate threat" let alone why the Generals in our military ( Can you say Tommy Franks? ) were totally shunned aside by this administration without having any say on "tactical" decisions regarding post-War Iraq.

It's just a shame that Dubya never listened to his Father's NSA, Brent Scowcroft when it came to Iraq. A total shame. And now we see a "quagmire" that we can continue to win tactical battles in, but I'm afraid fall way too short when it comes to the strategic side of the coin. Can you say Yugoslavia?

There's a big difference.
And I am not so sure that the Administration even had a clue as to what that difference was, or is.
 
Quote from waggie945:

Very well said.
I could not have said it better myself.

As a Republican, I have a problem of how this DEMOCRACY even came to the conclusion that Iraq was an "immediate threat" let alone why the Generals in our military ( Can you say Tommy Franks? ) were totally shunned aside by this administration without having any say on "tactical" decisions regarding post-War Iraq.

It's just a shame that Dubya never listened to his Father's NSA, Brent Scowcroft when it came to Iraq. A total shame. And now we see a "quagmire" that we can continue to win tactical battles in, but I'm afraid fall way too short when it comes to the strategic side of the coin. Can you say Yugoslavia?

There's a big difference.
And I am not so sure that the Administration even had a clue as to what that difference was, or is.
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LOL!!!! You a republican???? maybe a member of the Iraqi republican guard!!!! Give me a break.....you are more of a socialist then anything....you blame the government for everything and want them to solve all of california's problems..regulated gas, energy, environment...please....BTW....we are seeing Iraq's true colors come out now aren;t we??? they are TERRIFIED of a democracy there......there are TERRORIST ATTACKS daily there....but your going to continue to say they were not a threat??? why are they so afraid of an election??? think about it this way: If there were no attacks for the past three months or so.....power would be turned back over quickly to Iraq with a more immediate american pull out of troops.......yet they are fighting that turn over of power to their own people...why? think about it?
 
Quote from bungrider:

The evidence from Lynch and the other american/"coalition" POWs has pointed to FAR FAR FAR better treatment by the Iraqis than the Americans/British.

[/B]
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Bungrider,

I guess you're right - Iraqis do treat their prisoners better. They do not humiliate their captives like Americans do, they just behead them.
 
A Web site linked to al Qaeda and affiliate groups showed a video Tuesday of an American being beheaded. His captors said the killing was in part retaliation for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. His captors said the U.S. refused to exchange him for prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison.

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O.K......I'm waiting to hear the outrage from the Arab world. Surely there will be waaaaaay more outrage for an American having his head cut off than for some physical abuse of the Iraqi prisoners. (Yeah, right.)
 
Quote from Cutten:

If it was no big deal, how come Rumsfeld and Bush described the abuse as "inhuman", "hard to believe", and "disgusting"? Maybe they're just liberal pussies too? Why do the vast majority of Americans and members of the armed forces agree? Could it be that they actually have some sense of decency and civilised conduct?

And what have these prisoners got to do with american bodies being dragged through the streets? I don't recall any of them being found guilty of that crime, or even charged with it. And even if they were, the punishment meted out should be judicial, not torture. In America, even serial killers aren't sentenced to be tortured.

And if child rape is ok by you, where exactly do you draw the line? Maybe you think we should just commit genocide and wipe out every Iraqi, surely that would solve the problem? Perhaps we should bring back Saddam to run the jail, I'm sure he would get confessions pretty quick?

And what about the impact on the troops serving out there, not to mention civilians? Do you think the guy who got beheaded today is glad that the prison abuse happened, and that people like you say "so what"? I'm sure Mr Berg wishes that the morons who did this stuff had stopped to think for a moment about the consequences of their actions.
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Look at those big, bad, disgraceful American troops. How dare they humiliate these prisoners the way they did. This is "inhuman", "hard to believe", and "disgusting". Why don't they behave the normal way and drag their captives' corpses on the streets of Baghdad after beheading them?
These limp-wristed, half-dicked liberals were right all along - Americans are BAAAAAAAD. What a disgrace!

Can we start bombing now?
 
Quote from reg:

Bungrider,

I guess you're right - Iraqis do treat their prisoners better. They do not humiliate their captives like Americans do, they just behead them.
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Think bung got stung.....(on this one).
 
Quote from Cutten:

If it was no big deal, how come Rumsfeld and Bush described the abuse as "inhuman", "hard to believe", and "disgusting"?

It's politics and election year.

And even if they were, the punishment meted out should be judicial, not torture. In America, even serial killers aren't sentenced to be tortured.

War is not judicial, it is the imposition of the will of one power against the will of another. We don't get the juries decision before we pull the trigger!

And if child rape is ok by you, where exactly do you draw the line?

This is how the media does it by making these ridiculous accusations. I have never condoned child rape and never would. You are doing the classic media spin / play on words!

Do you think the guy who got beheaded today is glad that the prison abuse happened,

So here you are using the actions of the Iraq terrorists to behead an american citizen and using this as a debating point against the right of the USA to impose it's will and protect itself. Another shoddy attempt to mislead and shift the truth in favor of your democratic liberal bias. How dare you claim to be a rebulican!

I feel like I'm on Crossfire!

Have a good day Mr. Cutten, and good trading to all...

Allan
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Yes, I am going to continue to state that Iraq was not an "imminent" threat to the United States of America. Please show me where they were able to threaten the security of the United States of America with an immediate threat?

Gee, it sure as hell wasn't the Iraqi Air Force now was it? They didn't even get one freaking plane off the ground!

Or how about that big bad Iraqi Navy complete with nuclear powered subs and ballistic missiles. Yeah, right! The vaunted "Red Guard" and use of chemical weapons? Hardly.

Given your absurd logic, why haven't we invaded North Korea by now? Hell, they have proven nuclear capability! Shouldn't we be invading North Korea, making sure that there is a "regime" change and helping to turn that country into a Democracy too?

I don't know about you, but I really have a problem with seeing $200 billion of our tax dollars going towards a country that has no freaking chance of becoming a democracy. I also have a problem with young American soldiers dying in a land that none of us have cultural ties with, let alone any of us will be visiting anytime soon for a vacation. Get real TM. Try putting down the Dumya pom-poms long enough to actually see what is going on in the World.

Like Colin Powell said with regards to Iraq and the Pottery Barn policy: "You break it . . . you own it, and own it you will with all of the expectations of 25 million people that go with that."

Iraq a threat to the United States?
Keep dreaming . . .

Iraq becoming a Democracy?
Keep dreaming . . .

So much for Mission Accomplished!
 
Quote from waggie945:

From the transcript of Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba:

. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.

(ANNEXES 25 and 26)

7.(U) These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. In reaching my findings, I have carefully considered the pre-existing statements of the following witnesses and suspects (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) SPC Jeremy Sivits, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

b. (U) SPC Sabrina Harman, 372nd MP Company – Suspect

c. (U) SGT Javal S. Davis, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

c. (U) PFC Lynndie R. England, 372nd MP Company - Suspect

d. (U) Adel Nakhla, Civilian Translator, Titan Corp., Assigned to the 205th MI Brigade- Suspect

(Names deleted)

8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
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Some of you guys are so naive I honestly wonder how you manage to get to your jobs at the Burger King. There are a couple of items on that list that are a serious problem. I don't condone guard/prisoner sex, even though it is common in US prisons housing female detainees. I do not condone pouring acid ona prisoner. I do not condone rape, or sodomizing them. Most of the other items are at worst questionable, at best trivial. Threatening them with a gun? Slapping them around? Having a dog bark at them (Arabs tend to hate dogs, the Koran says they're dirty, so that is actually worse than it seems)?

As the title of this thread says, let's get real. These were insurgents/terrorists detainees. What are you supposed to do with them, read them their f*cking Miranda rights? These are guys setting off roadside bombs, sniping, taking civilian hostages. the orders came down form commnad--get some damn information from these bastards, we don't care how. You know that is what happened, or you are all fools. Do you really believe some 20 year old reservists from rural Maryland set all this up themselves? Yeah, they took a few trophy snapshots, maybe they slapped a couple of these pricks around, but all this stuff this ass-covering general is complaining about was part and parcel of breaking these guys.

While it's ironic that a bunch of liberals are suddenly willing toswallow whole an untested affidavit from some Pentagon paper pusher they have never heard of, did it ever occur to any of you that this is a massive ass-covering exercise? This is a classic military protect-the -brass-screw-the-troops spin job. Throw a few reservists to the wolves, pretend to be shocked, shocked I tell you, by the fact that insurgents were roughly interrogated, and maybe the media will cut you some slack.

If Bush and Rummy had any faith with the trigger pullers on the ground, they would stand up and say, we're sorry about a couple of those things that got out of hand, but this is war and we will do what is necessary to get information that will keep our troops alive.
 
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