Legality of Healthcare

Quote from RangeBar:

Unretired: I understand where you are coming from. I just don't share your distrust or cynical view of the federal gov't or our representatives. They say there are 2 sides to every story (some say 3). In the governing of a nation as large and diverse as the USA, they various issues have 22, 52, 102 and even more 'sides'. No matter what our reps do, they are going to appear 'snakeish'. ...

Indeed.
One would be hard pressed to hold my views and cynicism.
Mine has been born from 1000's of hours of detailed research over a 30 year period
... off the charts unique personal experience and knowledge
and contacts of high level import and inside information.

I do understand that few could agree with what I consider as fact.

I prefer however; to think the best of people and believe good will
prevail and everything can and will work out.

I am a curious blend of:
Hope and prayer
Wisdom and prudence
Foresight and pragmatism
Speculation and insurance.
 
Quote from RangeBar:

O.K.- I apologize for inserting 'stupid'. I know you're not 'stupid' and I know many conservatives who are very intelligent and educated.

Although I admit that not ALL conservatives are 'stupid', I do have to say that I've NEVER met a 'liberal' who wasn't more intelligent, educated and possesing a wider world-view than the average person. (Note: 'Liberal' should not be construed to equal Democrat.)

This link shows the amount of federal tax dollars received by each state as a percentage of federal taxes paid by the state. Note that the biggest receivers are conservative, mostly southern states. The states with negative returns tend to be liberal and western/northern.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

Under your concept of 'wealth should make the rules': Conservative viewpoints would be solidly drowned out by the voices of the rich liberals.

I'm sorry that data seems too broad for any meaningful conclusions except washington dc topped the list by a factor > 250% more than the highest state for federal dollars/ tax paid.
 
Quote from Scataphagos:

People "deserve" what they earn for themselves. A PRIMARY factor in America's economic power was the development of a large and affluent middle class. But a prime FACTOR in that occurring was a lack of competition. Now there are 300-500 Million Chindians who are happy to work for $5 per day, and they are competing for our once well-paying jobs. Therefore, America's middle class, as we've known it WILL NEVER RETURN.. and we have to "adjust down to it". I know, that sucks. But it's reality.

As for "anybody having a say in government"... I'm not as convinced of that now as I was when younger. It's immoral and wrong that 50% of the population pays ZERO federal income tax, yet they can "vote" for the other tax-paying 50% to have their assets confiscated and paid to the have-nots. Just plain WRONG!

You won't find much sympathy from me for the "works hard, but still a have not" crowd. I once had a job as a janitor. Always thinking, "this job sucks.... I need to do something different and make some money". Pardon me if I'm also thinking, "If I could do it, anybody else should be able, too".

Most people at the bottom are being EXPLOITED by and for the rest of us. It's our class system here in the U.S. And now they are needing to shove a lot of us further down to keep enriching themselves more and more at the top.

Salaries for CEOs and salaries for the average worker are way out of whack. It gets more and more out of whack every day. So your answer to the problem is to eliminate the people who are being exploited from having a vote. That is terribly convoluted logic.

We need to solve the problem...not blame those who are being exploited.

I don't care that you are not a janitor anymore. I'm so tired of hearing the same thing over and over again from folks. Har, har, har, I've pulled myself up by my bootstraps. Why can't you. That is the class system that you've bought into.

People are still being EXPLOITED. We do need janitors, don't we? I mean, at least they do provide a service that is much appreciated. Not these twitty-ass CEOs who think they are thousands of time more valuable than most who do nothing but steal from the rest of us.

People do have value. The TPTB want to make people believe that people who don't go to college do not have much value. I say bullshit, and yes, I did go to college.

And what do you say to all the people who are graduating from college today? Many who earn top grades cannot find a decent paying job. I guess they just better pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work at McDonald's to pay back their feaking loans of tens of thousands of dollars.

The janitor deserves to be paid enough to provide a decent living. No matter what you say. His or her 8 hours is sweat enough that should earn them a decent living. If they are not, the system is broken and it needs to be fixed.

Pay the salary that should be paid, and they will be able to pay their taxes.

AND...the problem is too much taxes. Shrink the goddam government. Quit letting them produce freaking monopolies that are crushing us.

We need to fix the problems at the source...not blame the victims.

What's happened to the golden rule...do unto others as you would have done unto you?

With the system set up as it is now, we cannot ALL pull ourselves up by our bootsraps. If we all did, the level would just be made higher. There always are people at the bottom. This system demands it. I think that 'bottom' deserves to earn a decent living instead of handing it over to the CEOs.

I don't claim to have all the answers, but I know taking away their right to vote is not the answer....even with how little our vote means today.

If you were still that janitor...and there is nothing wrong with being a janitor...it's good, honest work. If you were still that janitor, would you still arrive at the same answer that you have today?
 
THis, so far, has been, to me, an interesting debate. It has sometimes got very far from the topic, ranging from health care to religion to who is an idiot.

It seems what we have is a cross section of the U.S., with its broad and varied aspirations, goals, and basic philosophy of life. That is our nature. We can't change it. It is both a strength and weakness of a country like the USA that is such a melting pot of ideas and cultures.

I am at heart a libertarian, i want small government, and i what to do what i want to do without government interference. But I can't have my way. In a country as large and diverse as the US i will have to compromise. If I, and the others of like me, don't compromise surely chaos will ensue.

If we want to get anywhere with this debate we will have to stick to facts not opinion. With regard to health care there are very well established facts. To summarize them one can simply say that in the USA the quality of care one can avail oneself of is very much a function of ones means. Very wealthy citizens usually have no problem obtaining high quality care. The middle of the middle class on down have difficulty affording high quality care. For the poor, health care is a mixed bag. When it is good, the middle and upper classes are paying for it. (By "class" I mean how much money you have, not your worth relative to the human race.)

So we get down to one question. Do you want the status quo or do you want a change?

Personally I want change. And as someone with a libertarian bent, I don't like the idea of single payer, government run health care. I prefer the Obama approach, which was at its heart an effort to introduce competition and bring down costs while providing better access for the lower middle class and the poor via essentially universal health insurance coverage. But the guts of the plan, the public option, that would have provided the necessary competition, has been defeated by those who will make less money if it is included.

I am still in favor of the surviving Bill, as I believe, as Rangebar does, that if the surviving Bill makes things worse we will eventually be forced to make effective changes. And if the surviving Bill makes things better, from my point of view, then OK. I can't agree with those who think the present health care delivery "system", which is dictated to us by a Cartel, is better than the proposed changes. But I respect the views of those who are opposed to the Bill, so long as their views are not based on politics or religion, or misrepresented facts, but rather on their philosophical position that those who can afford good care should be able to obtain it and those who cannot should be excluded. In other words, I can accept, but don't agree with, the arguments of those who don't believe we are entitled to equal access to health care regardless of our means.

The reason I don't agree with those latter folks is not due to some altruistic penchant, but purely a practical matter. I think the country, meaning all of us, will be better off in the long run if everyone has equal access to medical care and the costs are spread among the entire population.

By better off I mean you'll have less need for a wall around your estate.
 
Quote from unretired:

RangeBar

Look ... I am very much in favor of real supported platforms.
I do not believe however, that true Republican and Democratic platforms exist as they did some 30-40 years ago.

What I mean is that those platforms were cogent, well meaning well designed and sensible. Each perspective, though different had merit.

For me it is quite clear that that system has been replaced, for all practical purpose
by the "Corporation of Washington DC" ... a ruling elite class Oligarchy that does not respect the wishes of their constituency ...
that experiences shifting tides of it's Corporate design, CEO and staff or czars.

So ... while many good governmental things in service to the people can happen ... and do to degree ...
often they come with compromise or a price ... and that usually is bad management and bigger government.

Both parties (or fronts of parties) are guilty of this.
There are few angels in Washington DC, but many snakes vying for power.

So ... as much as issues like health care need addressing ... I for one
am not willing to trust the snakes in Washington DC to get involved.

Based on both parties history and corruption I want far less government in every facet of American life.

Better and more efficient government ... yes.
More government ... no.

The reason this is posted in the Economics section is that it is very likely the real issue of Healthcare boils down to:
Money, assets and asset management and controls

Money -
---Yes and right away and control over new revenue.
---Functionally a "hostile takeover" of the entire medical field
worth trillions of dollars becomes an asset of "The Corporation of Washington DC"
---The new revenue base and flow is ginormous and brings balance to the FED after the huge bail-out.
---New controls can be implemented on the peoples and those
peoples can be designated good or bad assets and plans can be set in motion to have those
non-producing expensive bad assets liquidated off of the books.
---More babies and old people will die.

Which ever party was in likely would have gone after this asset base. I see it as pure evil.

Well said, unretired. I agree with you 100%.
 
Health Care needs reform, not the type of take over by the socialists in D.C. We have the best in the world and yet we have a few bent on destroying what has become the best care in the world, bar none.

How, and what type of reform is needed totally unclear to me, however it is very clear that this administration is trying to rush the bill because of what is very apparent. (The loss of many seats in both houses)

It is clear the majority of Americans are against this, yet this gang of thugs is bent with the clear socialist agenda that they have.

I hope things work out, however the biggest crybabies down the road if this passes are going to be those who thought this would be a grand idea.

Good luck to those who think socialism is a grand idea.

Nick
 
I'm sure the government will handle healthcare as well as they have handled Fannie, Freddie, Social Security. All a big success.

I wish I could save the postage on my end of year tax liability and just flush the dollars down the toilet.
 
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