Legality of Healthcare

[PiggyBank]

Quote from BSAM:

Just because something wasn't included in a 250 year old document, does that mean it isn't a "right"? You are looking strictly at a document. I am referring to a philosophical ideology. If it takes a new line or two on a piece of paper to help the narrow minded in our society to unlock their minds, then I'd be all for it.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the intent of the Constitution. But, Piggy, if you haven't noticed, it is 2010. Some things have changed since those guys put a few things on paper. You must be an employee in some beauracracy. You are just unable to support/understand/promote new ideas/changes without some piece of paper telling you it's okay.

And, in case you haven't noticed, the Constitution ain't working. The people have been raped by the politicians.

Relax Piggy. We're not communists. Some things are just self-evident, whether it was included in a document or not. Things like the IRS, term limits, mandatory balanced budgets, healthcare, crime and punishment, etc.

Healthcare is a right, not a privilege.

The entire concept of "rights" as we understand them stems from the Constitution... agreed? So if they are not specifically in the document itself, then the document must be amended. Due to your "philosophical idealogy", you choose to ignore this point. However your philosophy is not LAW.

I realize that the Constitution is imperfect, but it was left open ended intentionally, it can be altered, as long as the amendments DO NOT contradict the original document, that was also intentional. In this case specifically (universal health coverage) it would seem to be a logical first step to make health care a right. Of course it won't happen because imagine the can of worms that would open...

Now we are just going in circles, i've given my opinion that universal health care, at least in its present form, is unconstitutional. If u can't refute that I don't see any reason to continue this specific arguement. I've also given my perspective on health care and the cost of it but u just seemed to ignore that. The HelloDollar post that I quoted a few pages back could also be thought of as a philosophical idealogy, that would be free market capitalism, whatever happened to that?

 

[achilles28]

Quote from jprad:

What utter bullshit.

Most of the problem is due to the AMA artificially constraining the number of specialists in a given field in order to protect income levels so that they can support their liability insurance as much as their lifestyle.

However, there will always be specialists in every medical discipline that are quite easy to access because you have to bring the coin with you to pay for them -- they refuse most health insurance.

They can because they are that good.

Universal healthcare will not fix either of those problems.

Agreed. US healthcare is #1 for persons of means. No coin? Then it's substandard, like most other "free" systems.

Liability caps for personal injury/death should be set. Artificial scarcity for Med School graduates thanks to AMA-imposed enrollment caps are a big problem. A students (BSC) routinely get turned away from admission.

America's litigious society (propensity to sue) encourages this culture of defensive medicine. In addition to tort reform, there needs to be some additional cost imposed on the accuser if and when their lawsuit is thrown-out, to discourage frivolous litigation. Say 50-100% of the defendants court costs?

Then, deregulate healthcare. Open it up to competition for both services and insurance.

I'm no expert, but Imo, that's a good start. And healthcare is not a right. Nor is education.

 

[bevo96]

+1

Quote from Scataphagos:

BULLSHIT! Healthcare is NOT a "RIGHT"... never has been, never will be... only thought so by those who want to "get it for free... at somebody else's expense".

"Provide for yourself or perish... don't be a loadstone upon the neck of the productive... you deserve only what your earn for yourself, nothing more".. should be the motto of America.

Nobody has a RIGHT to ANYTHING which somebody else has to provide. If you can't provide for yourself, you might as well do society a favor an put a bullet through your brain... at least, go off somewhere private, curl up and die. NOBODY OWES YOU A LIVING... JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE BORN, YOU ARE NOT "ENTITLED" TO JACK.. GET USED TO IT!!

 

[bevo96]

BSAM and Range,

You two idealist must be sitting in a Berkley dorm sharing a bong.
Based on your opinions, you obviously haven't worked long enough and paid enough in taxes.

Most Americans are lazy and stupid and not worth saving. The real way to solve our problems would be to impose a 10K per child per year tax, instead we encourage the lazy and ignorant to reproduce prolifically (with government compensation) while the intelligent and responsible only reproduce what they can self support. Eventually we are going to only have people holding their hand out waiting for their "RIGHTS" and no one to provide it for them.

When you disincentivise people from working by taking the fruits of their labor to redistribute among those who do fuck all, eventually you will end up with everyone doing fuck all.


Also do you really think we are in Iraq just to blow shit up instead of maybe protecting our oil supply from China? Do to think we really care if Iraqis have a democracy or if Islamic extremists kill a few westerners? Wake up..when we lose control of the global natural resources, we are fucked...at that point, you can spend time convincing your Chinese leader that health care is your "right"...im sure he will agree.

 

[dumb_mother]

Quote from piezoe:

Just in case you were not aware, there is a wait in the US, in many cases a long one, just to see specialist. The data gathered by disinterested parties shows that US health care is worse than in many other developed countries. That is a fact. It is also a fact that although health care is better in many other developed countries than it is in the US, The cost in the US is far greater than in any other developed country. That is a fact.

Any debate should start with facts.

nothing makes me laugh more than posts like this.

sure the US has terrible health care (?) - that's why the rich and the politicians from foreign countries always choose to come to the US for their procedures as their #1 choice. show me the foreign politician that flew to cuba for his heart transplant.

read paul ryan's roadmap for america if you want to see a good plan that doesn't throw the seniors under the bus (as it leaves all current benefits for people 55+) and puts us on a sustainable course so that those under 55 actually get something- which all current experts (see CBO...) agree that our current situation is impossible to sustain.

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/

 

[piezoe]

Quote from jprad:


Most of the problem is due to the AMA artificially constraining the number of specialists...

Universal healthcare will not fix ... those problems.

Those are a reasonable assumptions as far as i'm concerned.

Ironically, what the Republicans say they want, i.e., a piecemeal approach, is what they are going to get. First the insurance companies, then the AMA, AHA, or big Pharma will be next. One at a time! The Obama approach is brilliant in my opinion. His administration realizes that you can't take on the entire sector at once. To much concerted opposition. You will surely lose the battle. (That was one of the mistakes that Hillary made.) The best chance for success in breaking the US Medical Cartel is to divide and conquer. One part on the Cartel ought to be easy for any administration to bring to its knees, however, and that is the FDA. But it will be much harder than it might at first appear to do that. The power of both big Pharma and the AMA is dependent on the FDA not breaking rank and staying with the Cartel. Both the AMA and big Pharma will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo with regard to the FDA! It will be much easier to reform the FDA once two more members of the original gang of 5 are conquered, the original members being: 1. insurance companies; 2. the AMA; 3. the AHA; 4. big Pharma, and 5. the FDA. It is time to declare war on the remaining gang of four! Bring in the troops!

 

[piezoe]

Quote from dumb_mother:

nothing makes me laugh more than posts like this.

sure the US has terrible health care (?) - that's why the rich and the politicians from foreign countries always choose to come to the US for their procedures as their #1 choice. show me the foreign politician that flew to cuba for his heart transplant.

read paul ryan's roadmap for america if you want to see a good plan that doesn't throw the seniors under the bus (as it leaves all current benefits for people 55+) and puts us on a sustainable course so that those under 55 actually get something- which all current experts (see CBO...) agree that our current situation is impossible to sustain.

http://www.roadmap.republicans.budget.house.gov/

Try to get a grip on reality, if you can.

 

[Gabfly1]

Why is this thead not in P&R? After well over 80 posts and thousands of views, you'd think that a moderator would have flagged it.

 

[pookie]

Quote from piezoe:

Those are a reasonable assumptions as far as i'm concerned.

Ironically, what the Republicans say they want, i.e., a piecemeal approach, is what they are going to get. First the insurance companies, then the AMA, AHA, or big Pharma will be next. One at a time! The Obama approach is brilliant in my opinion. His administration realizes that you can't take on the entire sector at once. To much concerted opposition. You will surely lose the battle. (That was one of the mistakes that Hillary made.) The best chance for success in breaking the US Medical Cartel is to divide and conquer. One part on the Cartel ought to be easy for any administration to bring to its knees, however, and that is the FDA. But it will be much harder than it might at first appear to do that. The power of both big Pharma and the AMA is dependent on the FDA not breaking rank and staying with the Cartel. Both the AMA and big Pharma will fight tooth and nail to keep the status quo with regard to the FDA! It will be much easier to reform the FDA once two more members of the original gang of 5 are conquered, the original members being: 1. insurance companies; 2. the AMA; 3. the AHA; 4. big Pharma, and 5. the FDA. It is time to declare war on the remaining gang of four! Bring in the troops!

I sure hope you're right. I'd love to see this whole big mess cleaned up. It's been going on for far too long and just keeps getting worse.

 

[Scataphagos]

Quote from pookie:

I sure hope you're right. I'd love to see this whole big mess cleaned up. It's been going on for far too long and just keeps getting worse.

You want healthcare reform? Well, it would be to our benefit... BUT NOT THE POWER-GRAB POS OBAMA/POLOSI/REID ARE TRYING TO SHOVE DOWN OUR THROATS!!


"Scrap the Crap" and start over. Bipartisan. Make a deal on the "big and obvious" for starters.... get that working, evaluate, then refine later.

Recognize that the Obama/Pelosi/Reid triumvirate bill is NOT PRIMARILY ABOUT HEALTH CARE... THAT'S THE "SMOKE SCREEN", THE "MISDIRECT"... it's really about Big Government power, control, and money.

FUCK OBAMA, FUCK PELOSI, FUCK REID.... AND ALL OF THE DEM SHEEP... REJECT THEM ASSHOLES!!