Quote from Thunderdog:
Sorry, even that observation misses the point. At around the time of the NFA findings, it may interest you to know that trade time stamps were a troublesome issue. If you are interested in some background reading, you may find Brokers, Bagmen, and Moles: Fraud and Corruption in the Chicago Futures Markets to be an interesting book:
http://www.amazon.com/Brokers-Bagme...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251654254&sr=8-1
As it happens, a few years ago, I spoke with an enforcement attorney at the NFA. In those days, there have been a number of suspected cases of broker/trader collusion where a trader would post initially favorable trades to his own account while assigning immediately unfavorable trades to his managed client accounts. There were a number of instances of traders doing very well while clients accounts were simultaneously suffering. The problem was proving collusion between broker and trader because they would be able to cover each other's tracks, particularly with the loose regulatory environment as it related to time stamps. For practical purposes, the best you could do was see if it walked like a duck and quacked like a duck, and then draw your own conclusions.
Now I am not for one minute suggesting that LW would have engaged in such outrageous conduct. However, I find it instructive that the NFA saw fit to make the association of his personal account performance with that of his managed client accounts. One can only wonder why the NFA would have chosen to do so, and draw his or her own conclusions. And, of course, there was the small matter of both the broker and LW being charged together with marketing infractions or some such. I'm sure they meant well.
Thunderdog:
C'mon Thunderdog. Of course you are attempting to suggest "outrageous conduct" on the part of Williams. That's exactly what you are doing with the above post. This is where you go too far. And frankly, you don't actually know what you're talking about. You and I have been down this road before. See this link:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...ghlight=oldtrader larry williams&pagenumber=3
Note your apology for some inaccuracies that you posted.
Let's talk again about timestamps. Back in those days any broker who received an order from a client timestamped it. I was a broker back in the old days. I had a timestamp sitting on my desk right next to my direct line to the floor. Orders in those days came in over the telephone, was timestamped, then passed on to the floor, and timestamped by whomever received it there.
Later on, as I started trading on my own, at one point I used a direct line to the floor from an office. When the phone was picked up they timestamped it and shouted and/or handsignaled the order to the crowd. Real simple.
As a broker I handled some accounts who placed simultaneous orders. So for instance, let's say we had 10 accounts, each of whom wanted 5 contracts. When the order came in, we placed an order for 50, which were to be split in accordance with a preplanned agreement. Same timestamping as above.
Now let's take Larry Williams. Let's say he's going to trade both his account and a pool account of some type. Let's say he wants 100 contracts, 5 of which go to him, and 95 of which go to his pool. What you are intimating is that he places the 100 contract order, which is timestamped on receipt, then relayed to the floor, where it is timestamped again, at which point the order is executed. Williams then does what? Observe what it is doing for the next minute or so maybe to see what direction is going, and when he finds out it's going in his favor, he tells the broker to put 95 in his account this time? C'mon TDog. At that, watching for a minute or so doesn't tell you where it's going to be in an hour, or tomorrow necessarily. The bottomline...brokers don't put in these types of bulk orders from an individual, and then him change around the instructions on what to do with it.
Go a little farther. His trading contest lasted a year. You're suggesting not only did he do it, but he did successfully for a year? Absolute horseshit once again.
Now, maybe what you're suggesting is that he would enter the bulk order, and then wait for a LONG period of time to see which way it went before telling the broker how to allocate it....allocating it to his account when it was successful. You don't think the timestamps would show this??? You don't think the authorities couldn't pick this up on an investigation of the accounts? Of course they could. That's why what you are suggesting here is absolutely false. And anyone with any experience from those days knows it.
So that you don't continue to attempt to smear someone with these continuing assinuations, let me inform you what the problem was back in those days: order comes in to sell 10 at .80. Broker sells 10 at .80 for his own account, not filling your order. If it moves down, he's got a profit, you don't have a fill. If it moves up, he covers his position with your by buying your 10, and you are now filled with an order that initially is going against you. Now, that's not the Williams situation. Williams was not on the floor. Williams if anything, could have been a victim of this type of trade, as I was, and as many were in the Chicago based markets.
So once again Thunderdog, Williams did not advertise correctly, and therefore received a small fine. That's it. You don't need to allow your imaginings to wonder any further than that. To do so would be entirely dishonest on your part.
Williams has a public record for many years. He has many innovative techniques that he has created. And, he has offered to show his current positions. That's considerable transparency. All I see from you is accusations, intimations, some of them complete figments of your imagination. You want to criticize the guy criticize him for what he has done, or what he has been charged with, not what you imagine he "could" have done (even though you don't have the experience to know better).
I'm not surprised that you are unwilling to enter a contest against him. To use YOUR tactics that you have used against Williams, my guess is you don't have the $100K, that you don't trade at all, unless it is strictly paper trading. But if you're sure that Williams is so bogus, step up my man. Here's your chance to make some easy money. Either that, or STFU.
OldTrader
but no answer whatsoever. I could say i'm Obama and point ppl to white house's email 