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keystone trading group
- Thread starter bonds
- Start date
Is their training worth the enormous fees they are charging?
The main reason anyone pay these fees is because they dangle a prop job in front of them!
If they are honest, they can advertise under education or online schools, not under jobs.
The main reason anyone pay these fees is because they dangle a prop job in front of them!
If they are honest, they can advertise under education or online schools, not under jobs.
I just reviewed their website. The only problem I have with it is that they say that you have access to their capital upon completion of the course. However in a PM someone mentioned to me that if they go below the level of capital they contributed then they have to take another "training course."
This is all fine and well but the ad shouldn't say access to firm capital, it should just say access to firm LEVERAGE because in the end that's what it really is, for non-experienced traders. Although, in their ads they are most likely not being insincere. More than likely they are just covering certain legal issues that take away their ability to just come out and say it. These legal issues are utterly ridiculous in the first place, however the rules are the rules and nobody wants their firm to be held liable.
This is the same format as many arcade shops use, but from talking to people it is my understanding that they do actually train you, so that makes them better than most. If I was to join a firm now and didn't have a license I would recommend looking for a CBSX registered B/D. They allow traders to be recognized as prop with out a license. But to be honest they're all the same, at least these guys actually teach you how to trade first.
This is all fine and well but the ad shouldn't say access to firm capital, it should just say access to firm LEVERAGE because in the end that's what it really is, for non-experienced traders. Although, in their ads they are most likely not being insincere. More than likely they are just covering certain legal issues that take away their ability to just come out and say it. These legal issues are utterly ridiculous in the first place, however the rules are the rules and nobody wants their firm to be held liable.
This is the same format as many arcade shops use, but from talking to people it is my understanding that they do actually train you, so that makes them better than most. If I was to join a firm now and didn't have a license I would recommend looking for a CBSX registered B/D. They allow traders to be recognized as prop with out a license. But to be honest they're all the same, at least these guys actually teach you how to trade first.
Quote from WinItAll:
I just reviewed their website. The only problem I have with it is that they say that you have access to their capital upon completion of the course. However in a PM someone mentioned to me that if they go below the level of capital they contributed then they have to take another "training course."
This is all fine and well but the ad shouldn't say access to firm capital, it should just say access to firm LEVERAGE because in the end that's what it really is, for non-experienced traders. Although, in their ads they are most likely not being insincere. More than likely they are just covering certain legal issues that take away their ability to just come out and say it. These legal issues are utterly ridiculous in the first place, however the rules are the rules and nobody wants their firm to be held liable.
This is the same format as many arcade shops use, but from talking to people it is my understanding that they do actually train you, so that makes them better than most. If I was to join a firm now and didn't have a license I would recommend looking for a CBSX registered B/D. They allow traders to be recognized as prop with out a license. But to be honest they're all the same, at least these guys actually teach you how to trade first.
Arcade shops are fine so long as they said they are arcade shops and a trader decides to join one. Arcade shops do not usually have an upfront training fee of several thousands. They have desk fees and commissions.
Remember that TRAINING FEES are gone before you even start. Risk deposit is supposed to be refund to you if you don't lose the money!
Quote from hippietrader:
Arcade shops are fine so long as they said they are arcade shops and a trader decides to join one. Arcade shops do not usually have an upfront training fee of several thousands. They have desk fees and commissions.
Remember that TRAINING FEES are gone before you even start. Risk deposit is supposed to be refund to you if you don't lose the money!
Neither does Keystone.
If you leave you get most of your money back, a portion of it is for the training, and it's one full month of live training in an actual class.Not just a "watch this dvd or powerpoint" deal.
You guys have to tell me if it would be ok to go to any course, get extensive training for a job and then just walk away...You would basically be expecting someone to give you their time for free...I don't think that's right, is it?
I don't mind a debate, but when people come to the table with arguments that are totally off it doesn't really work.
Now that we finally closed the argument that took the last 5 pages, we can probably move on to something more constructive.
Thank you.
Hippie,
You're missing the point. The reason that these firms have "training fees" is b/c it's illegal to take risk capital from unlicensed traders and leverage them. Also, it is illegal for a non-broker dealer to make money off of a trader on commissions.
That is why they enter the grey area of "Training Fees." In almost all cases, whether they teach you or not, the Training Fee is really just a hidden risk deposit. Ever notice that if you pay 5k for training they let you trade until you're down about 5k in your account when you go live?
It's not a coincidence. People just have to understand what the rules that govern trading firms are. That way there is no surprise. Most shops call it a training fee and don't even give you the courtesy of getting trained, so if you find one that does I suppose you should consider yourself lucky.
If you do your research you will see that even though they are legitimate companies, some of them emloying well over a hundred people, they still clear thru or are a group under Hold bros., Assent, Dimension or any other B/D. The only difference is that unlike these firms they give you leverage upwards of the allowable 4 to 1. Not to mention that to legally trade on your own as an unlicensed day trader, you must have a 25K buffer at all times. So instead of 100k getting you 2 mil BP, you only receive 400k and that's where the problem lies.
You're missing the point. The reason that these firms have "training fees" is b/c it's illegal to take risk capital from unlicensed traders and leverage them. Also, it is illegal for a non-broker dealer to make money off of a trader on commissions.
That is why they enter the grey area of "Training Fees." In almost all cases, whether they teach you or not, the Training Fee is really just a hidden risk deposit. Ever notice that if you pay 5k for training they let you trade until you're down about 5k in your account when you go live?
It's not a coincidence. People just have to understand what the rules that govern trading firms are. That way there is no surprise. Most shops call it a training fee and don't even give you the courtesy of getting trained, so if you find one that does I suppose you should consider yourself lucky.
If you do your research you will see that even though they are legitimate companies, some of them emloying well over a hundred people, they still clear thru or are a group under Hold bros., Assent, Dimension or any other B/D. The only difference is that unlike these firms they give you leverage upwards of the allowable 4 to 1. Not to mention that to legally trade on your own as an unlicensed day trader, you must have a 25K buffer at all times. So instead of 100k getting you 2 mil BP, you only receive 400k and that's where the problem lies.
Quote from WinItAll:
Hippie,
You're missing the point. The reason that these firms have "training fees" is b/c it's illegal to take risk capital from unlicensed traders and leverage them. Also, it is illegal for a non-broker dealer to make money off of a trader on commissions.
That is why they enter the grey area of "Training Fees." In almost all cases, whether they teach you or not, the Training Fee is really just a hidden risk deposit. Ever notice that if you pay 5k for training they let you trade until you're down about 5k in your account when you go live?
It's not a coincidence. People just have to understand what the rules that govern trading firms are. That way there is no surprise. Most shops call it a training fee and don't even give you the courtesy of getting trained, so if you find one that does I suppose you should consider yourself lucky.
If you do your research you will see that even though they are legitimate companies, some of them emloying well over a hundred people, they still clear thru or are a group under Hold bros., Assent, Dimension or any other B/D. The only difference is that unlike these firms they give you leverage upwards of the allowable 4 to 1. Not to mention that to legally trade on your own as an unlicensed day trader, you must have a 25K buffer at all times. So instead of 100k getting you 2 mil BP, you only receive 400k and that's where the problem lies.
They won't give you back your "training fee" even if never lose a dime of their capital. A risk deposit is refunded if you do not incur loss.
Don't see that the trader is in a better position with a risk deposit than a training fee? They are some firms that will dismiss the trader long before they exhaust the tuition they paid! I am a PM about that.
I wonder if they can sued for charging such enormous training fees if they don't deliver the promised training.
Yes, you're correct. But the reason they don't give it back is b/c it's illegal. They are not allowed to take risk deposits so they have to treat it as a training fee. It is actually illegal to give back the money b/c that shows that it's actually a risk deposit. So basically they are forced to hide what is meant to really be a risk deposit in the form of a training fee b/c of an absurd and outdated law.
The rules say that you can be unlicensed if you're trading the firms money as an outside contractor. So by giving back money it shows that it was really a risk deposit.
It's a dumb law which the cbsx is now outdating, but while it remains with the other exchanges this is what these firms HAVE to do, in order to keep their business open while taking risk deposits from unlicensed traders.
The rules say that you can be unlicensed if you're trading the firms money as an outside contractor. So by giving back money it shows that it was really a risk deposit.
It's a dumb law which the cbsx is now outdating, but while it remains with the other exchanges this is what these firms HAVE to do, in order to keep their business open while taking risk deposits from unlicensed traders.
A lot of bitterness and negativity in this thread toward a firm where you all have no experience one way or another with them, other than "I saw their ad on craigslist". Most of the people bitching here about firms like Keystone also have professed that they don't have experience trading stocks or don't have a track record. You have a right to state your opinion, but if you are making a judgment toward a firm or an individual, at least make the effort to learn something about them before you profess your opinion as fact. Take them up on their offer of sitting with them for a few hours and see if they can or cannot do it. And then you have a basis for saying they are full o'shit or not. THAT'S a proper opinion. So far what most have posted here is tantamount to saying that Pete bugs the crap out of me because he is bald and reminds me of my crazy uncle (which one is bald - Eric? Pete? Either way, it is a stupid example of an extreme, so no offense to Pete or Eric, ok guys?)
Earlier in this thread there was a guy who actually traded with them and forwarded HIS opinion based on experience about the firm. Just try to avoid the noise about Velez as all the id's are one person who is just being a little bitch about his association with Pete and Eric's old firm. Also, check out this thread:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132155
you will find some more first hand experience working with the firm, some good and some not so good. So far, it is the only non-biased assessments of them and it had both good and bad. It would be nice for some people take a little more balanced approach in your attacks.
One question: a lot of you are asking, nay, demanding, a position with no money down even if you have no experience trading stocks or tracks records to show you actually know something. Why would anyone take a chance on you? Most of these firms you are seeking out are not capitalized like a small investment bank and cannot afford to absorb the losses that inevitably accompany hiring such inexperienced traders. Yes, they would have a vested interest in your success, but this aint Goldman or Morgan or Credit Suisse or BNP, etc. Just a few poor traders can take a firm down if they don't know what they are doing. So why would they front an unproven commodity? (and yes, you are a commodity because they are more people looking to be a trader in one form or another than you think)
Don Bright, in one of his posts a while back (and I am sure had been repeated many times before) says that some of the best independent equity traders are those who go the route and get licensed and hook up with a licensed firm that will give you the leverage you need. He believes that these type of traders will treat their trading as a business (their business) instead of a job and will be more dilligent towards achieving a "success" because it is all theirs. There are many firms out there where you can do this, whether it is Bright or Echo or one of the Assent shops. You have many choices.
Bottom line: you don't have to go with any firm if it is not what you want.
Earlier in this thread there was a guy who actually traded with them and forwarded HIS opinion based on experience about the firm. Just try to avoid the noise about Velez as all the id's are one person who is just being a little bitch about his association with Pete and Eric's old firm. Also, check out this thread:
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=132155
you will find some more first hand experience working with the firm, some good and some not so good. So far, it is the only non-biased assessments of them and it had both good and bad. It would be nice for some people take a little more balanced approach in your attacks.
One question: a lot of you are asking, nay, demanding, a position with no money down even if you have no experience trading stocks or tracks records to show you actually know something. Why would anyone take a chance on you? Most of these firms you are seeking out are not capitalized like a small investment bank and cannot afford to absorb the losses that inevitably accompany hiring such inexperienced traders. Yes, they would have a vested interest in your success, but this aint Goldman or Morgan or Credit Suisse or BNP, etc. Just a few poor traders can take a firm down if they don't know what they are doing. So why would they front an unproven commodity? (and yes, you are a commodity because they are more people looking to be a trader in one form or another than you think)
Don Bright, in one of his posts a while back (and I am sure had been repeated many times before) says that some of the best independent equity traders are those who go the route and get licensed and hook up with a licensed firm that will give you the leverage you need. He believes that these type of traders will treat their trading as a business (their business) instead of a job and will be more dilligent towards achieving a "success" because it is all theirs. There are many firms out there where you can do this, whether it is Bright or Echo or one of the Assent shops. You have many choices.
Bottom line: you don't have to go with any firm if it is not what you want.