Keeping it Simple
- Thread starter rs7
- Start date
RS7 (don't covet my colors dude)At the risk of getting back to "trading" rather than talking about the pros and cons of Publias' decision to stay or leave (I am gratified it appears the jury is back, and he has decided to stay), I think I want to make a comment about the "Top Traders Don't Share" thread.
The amount of responses is huge, and the number of views even bigger.
In one word, I think the premise is NONSENSE.
I think top traders DO share. It is a matter of how much, and with whom.
I do not believe I have ever even heard about, much less actually known, a successful trader that did not get help somewhere along the line from another trader (or traders).
Are there traders that are secretive about what they do? ABSOLUTELY!. But the ones I know who are, do not trade the way most of us trade. They are "special situation" traders. If I knew, for example, that stock X had a predictable relationship to stock Y, and there were times that relationship was out of whack, and this could make me money, and..the two stocks were thin trading stocks....well, no, I wouldn't share that, because that information, if too widely recognized, could affect my trades in it.
But IN GENERAL, I don't believe sharing information about what works for for me can be detrimental to me. If I trade 5,000 shares of a stock, or 50,000 thousand in a day, and that stock trades 100,000,000+ in a market that is trading 2 billion shares a day, what can I possibly say and to whom can I say it, that will influence the the action of that stock?
And regardless of the existence of "ego" (as has been argued here now ad-nauseum), and it's value or worthlessness if it does exist, I would have to say that the very last thing a successful trader is afraid of is an unsuccessful trader ruining their "mojo".
Now I find myself quite surprised to have read this. I had the impression that Nitro was himself a pretty successful trader. But in this post, he implies he is not. He asks the right questions, and his own statements and opinions about trading seem pretty well formed. So why does he A: apparently believe that less than 5% of the people are not wasting their time, and B: Why does he bother with this site if that is what he believes to be true?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but I am going to stick my neck out here and put forth a "theory". And that is that perhaps there are too many traders here that are trading from home and home is for most people just not a conducive atmosphere from which to trade.
I have tried it. It doesn't work for me. I tried it in July (just last month), and while most of the guys I know (even from what I hear on this board from guys I don't know), July was a pretty good trading month. But my experiment was a failure. I did not lose money, but neither did I have a successful month.
My feeling is to trade like a pro, it requires a professional atmosphere. It takes (at least for me, and I have traded for a lot of years) getting out, going to a "job" and communicating face to face with other traders who are trying to make a living doing the same thing. Sharing ideas and observations with those people. This is different than endlessly debating irresolvable issues of philosophy with people who are nameless and faceless on an internet bulletin board.
I have tried to share some of my trading approaches. I have gotten plenty of responses both negative and positive. But I absolutely know that nothing I have divulged (worthwhile or worthless) has in any way affected my trading, or my results.
"EGO" Time: Broke 80 yesterday playing from the back tees!!! (proof anything is possible)
Good Trading and Peace and Stuff to All,
RS7
The amount of responses is huge, and the number of views even bigger.
In one word, I think the premise is NONSENSE.
I think top traders DO share. It is a matter of how much, and with whom.
I do not believe I have ever even heard about, much less actually known, a successful trader that did not get help somewhere along the line from another trader (or traders).
Are there traders that are secretive about what they do? ABSOLUTELY!. But the ones I know who are, do not trade the way most of us trade. They are "special situation" traders. If I knew, for example, that stock X had a predictable relationship to stock Y, and there were times that relationship was out of whack, and this could make me money, and..the two stocks were thin trading stocks....well, no, I wouldn't share that, because that information, if too widely recognized, could affect my trades in it.
But IN GENERAL, I don't believe sharing information about what works for for me can be detrimental to me. If I trade 5,000 shares of a stock, or 50,000 thousand in a day, and that stock trades 100,000,000+ in a market that is trading 2 billion shares a day, what can I possibly say and to whom can I say it, that will influence the the action of that stock?
And regardless of the existence of "ego" (as has been argued here now ad-nauseum), and it's value or worthlessness if it does exist, I would have to say that the very last thing a successful trader is afraid of is an unsuccessful trader ruining their "mojo".
Now I find myself quite surprised to have read this. I had the impression that Nitro was himself a pretty successful trader. But in this post, he implies he is not. He asks the right questions, and his own statements and opinions about trading seem pretty well formed. So why does he A: apparently believe that less than 5% of the people are not wasting their time, and B: Why does he bother with this site if that is what he believes to be true?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but I am going to stick my neck out here and put forth a "theory". And that is that perhaps there are too many traders here that are trading from home and home is for most people just not a conducive atmosphere from which to trade.
I have tried it. It doesn't work for me. I tried it in July (just last month), and while most of the guys I know (even from what I hear on this board from guys I don't know), July was a pretty good trading month. But my experiment was a failure. I did not lose money, but neither did I have a successful month.
My feeling is to trade like a pro, it requires a professional atmosphere. It takes (at least for me, and I have traded for a lot of years) getting out, going to a "job" and communicating face to face with other traders who are trying to make a living doing the same thing. Sharing ideas and observations with those people. This is different than endlessly debating irresolvable issues of philosophy with people who are nameless and faceless on an internet bulletin board.
I have tried to share some of my trading approaches. I have gotten plenty of responses both negative and positive. But I absolutely know that nothing I have divulged (worthwhile or worthless) has in any way affected my trading, or my results.
"EGO" Time: Broke 80 yesterday playing from the back tees!!! (proof anything is possible)
Good Trading and Peace and Stuff to All,
RS7
I think the top trader sharing question is related to the is trading simple question.
do top traders share information?
Yes they do.
do top traders share their experience?
No they don't, because experience can't be shared.
Is trading simple?
Yes it is.
But so is juggling live chainsaws- once you get the hang of it.
How do traders become top traders? They start out knowing nothing and then grow by constantly processing information in their short term memory and transferring that information to their long term memory over time, while simultaneously building broad pathways within their LTM network so that the information is instantly acessible at the appropriate point of action.
Trading is not just knowing ten or twenty or fifty or a hundred separate concepts. It is handling all those concepts in a fluid, free flowing motion and bringing each concept to bear at the exact moment in time it is required while never leaving an element out. The degree to which you can do this is the degree to which you can be a badass. Coincidentally, this is why there will always be human traders who can leave computers in the dust.
Top traders simply integrate large amounts of information through the process of experience, internalization and memory recall. Can I teach you what I know? Yes I can. Can I open up your brain and hardwire your mental network so that the points of understanding I have access to in my long term memory are immediately accessible in YOUR long term memory same as mine? No way Jose.
We program our brains like computers. This programming process takes years. Until the available information is fully programmed to the point where it can be processed and recalled fluidly in real time, the information is not yet useful.
The personal integration process of knowledge and experience resulting in a chaotic/self reflexive mental system that reacts instantly and turns on a dime is what turns a beginner into a pro.
A top trader can no more turn you into a top trader through information or 'secrets' alone any more than Arnold Schwarzenegger can give you his muscles.
Gots to do it yo' SELF.
do top traders share information?
Yes they do.
do top traders share their experience?
No they don't, because experience can't be shared.
Is trading simple?
Yes it is.
But so is juggling live chainsaws- once you get the hang of it.
How do traders become top traders? They start out knowing nothing and then grow by constantly processing information in their short term memory and transferring that information to their long term memory over time, while simultaneously building broad pathways within their LTM network so that the information is instantly acessible at the appropriate point of action.
Trading is not just knowing ten or twenty or fifty or a hundred separate concepts. It is handling all those concepts in a fluid, free flowing motion and bringing each concept to bear at the exact moment in time it is required while never leaving an element out. The degree to which you can do this is the degree to which you can be a badass. Coincidentally, this is why there will always be human traders who can leave computers in the dust.
Top traders simply integrate large amounts of information through the process of experience, internalization and memory recall. Can I teach you what I know? Yes I can. Can I open up your brain and hardwire your mental network so that the points of understanding I have access to in my long term memory are immediately accessible in YOUR long term memory same as mine? No way Jose.
We program our brains like computers. This programming process takes years. Until the available information is fully programmed to the point where it can be processed and recalled fluidly in real time, the information is not yet useful.
The personal integration process of knowledge and experience resulting in a chaotic/self reflexive mental system that reacts instantly and turns on a dime is what turns a beginner into a pro.
A top trader can no more turn you into a top trader through information or 'secrets' alone any more than Arnold Schwarzenegger can give you his muscles.
Gots to do it yo' SELF.
Great post Darkhorse. And very very accurate and concise! Good job!!!!
I think somewhere I said in one of my posts that a friend of mine started to trade and that he wanted me to teach him. I told him what I could, but I found it impossible to have him sit with me as I traded. I could not begin to tell him what I was thinking, because there was too much input. It was distracting for me to have him with me.
It isn't possible to explain to someone how the input is processed. Not in real time. Because there is too much, and the combination of this input results in too subjective an analysis to be explainable. This is why we trade, and computers do not. So far.
RS7
1st would like to say I really enjoy this thread. Thank you
RS7 for the time you put in to it. 2nd, I LOVE the post Darkhorse posted. Like an epiphany. Something you always "knew" but never consciously put in words (much like Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends..") The best traders have the time element, and no amount of anything can transfer that to another individual. The Arnold example (or Bruce Lee for that matter) are perfect. You could have watched every single workout Arnold did, everything thing he ate, etc... but the 1st time you step into the gym, you are amazed. You are light years from Arnold. You have the knowledge and the equipment, but you don't have his "time put in" element.
Darkhorse gives those of us that are newer traders, the great hope that the "overwhelmed" feeling we may feel at times with trading, will slowly subside as we put our time in. Therein lies the "holy grail" of trading. Keep doing it. Keep studying, learning, experimenting, refining, etc... and you will arrive. Then the burden is upon you from the newbies..."Teach me your secrets" and to yourself you will smile and think back to when.....
DTiTs (DayTradersInTheSky)
RS7 for the time you put in to it. 2nd, I LOVE the post Darkhorse posted. Like an epiphany. Something you always "knew" but never consciously put in words (much like Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends..") The best traders have the time element, and no amount of anything can transfer that to another individual. The Arnold example (or Bruce Lee for that matter) are perfect. You could have watched every single workout Arnold did, everything thing he ate, etc... but the 1st time you step into the gym, you are amazed. You are light years from Arnold. You have the knowledge and the equipment, but you don't have his "time put in" element.
Darkhorse gives those of us that are newer traders, the great hope that the "overwhelmed" feeling we may feel at times with trading, will slowly subside as we put our time in. Therein lies the "holy grail" of trading. Keep doing it. Keep studying, learning, experimenting, refining, etc... and you will arrive. Then the burden is upon you from the newbies..."Teach me your secrets" and to yourself you will smile and think back to when.....
DTiTs (DayTradersInTheSky)
mfitch57, darkhorse and william...(among many others).
You guys get it big time. Maybe my work here is done.
You guys say it so much better than me. Goes to show that experience can pay, but it doesn't necessarily translate to the ability to transfer the knowledge.
I always knew that the expression "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach" was TOTAL UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT!!!! Those who can teach, can do the most noble thing there is!
My hat is off to all of you!!!
Tranquility, Peace, Good Trading, Rock and Roll, and all kinds of other good stuff to you,
RS7
You guys get it big time. Maybe my work here is done.
You guys say it so much better than me. Goes to show that experience can pay, but it doesn't necessarily translate to the ability to transfer the knowledge.
I always knew that the expression "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach" was TOTAL UNADULTERATED BULLSHIT!!!! Those who can teach, can do the most noble thing there is!
My hat is off to all of you!!!
Tranquility, Peace, Good Trading, Rock and Roll, and all kinds of other good stuff to you,
RS7