Just to prove gun control nuts are full of shit

Quote from RedDuke:

Come on, you like to talk about facts, and the fact is no plane was ever brought down on us soil via a missile after end of WW2.
I did not say one had been
I can bet we have some people on our soil who would love to do it, yet it is extremely hard if not impossible to obtain a rocket. Imagine if shoulder rockets were legal?

It makes sense to ban certain things where others it does not.
I don't think you can buy one from your friendly neighborhood gun dealer.
You could certainly buy one on the international black market and smuggle it in. Fairly easily. Banning them might very well make sense. I'm primarily arguing that banning them doesn't keep them out of the hands that really want them.

Quote from RedDuke:

Not many people are naive to believe modern fighter jets can be brought down by rifle shots.....
I did not say I thought they could be.
 
Quote from L-Kabong:

You're right, if it is otherwise commonly available. But if a ban of semi auo rifles had gone into place about fifty years ago, I don't think there would as many around today as there are. Alcohol and drugs are expendable products. You can't sniff the same gram of cocaine and swig from the same bottle of vodka for 20 years. They need replenishment, so demand is persistent. Plus, I never heard of anyone cracking somebody over the head with an alcoholic beverage, or blowing a cloud of cocaine into someones face to harm them. Durable products are different. That's why if semi auto rifles were to be outlawed, it might take a while to see the results of such legislation.

How much is AR15 today? If it were outlawed what do you think the cost of it would be on the black market? Would you buy an outlawed firearm?

Yep exactly what I am saying. It will take while to get full benefits of the ban.
 
Quote from L-Kabong:

You're right, if it is otherwise commonly available. But if a ban of semi auo rifles had gone into place about fifty years ago, I don't think there would as many around today as there are.
Many drugs have been banned longer than that and they're still around.
Alcohol and drugs are expendable products. You can't sniff the same gram of cocaine and swig from the same bottle of vodka for 20 years. They need replenishment, so demand is persistent.
I'm not seeing this as much of a valid argument.
Plus, I never heard of anyone cracking somebody over the head with an alcoholic beverage, or blowing a cloud of cocaine into someones face to harm them.
Me neither, but I've heard of date rape drugs (also banned) and endless drug related crime.
... That's why if semi auto rifles were to be outlawed, it might take a while to see the results of such legislation.
How long does it take for a firearm to turn to dust?
Visited any firearms museums?

How much is AR15 today? If it were outlawed what do you think the cost of it would be on the black market? Would you buy an outlawed firearm?
If I really wanted one I would. The cost of drugs is high because they're being traded on the black market. It's not stopping anyone that wants them from buying them is it?
 
Red Duke,

Let me take another shot at explaining my position. It's twofold. One, I don't like my rights being constrained by the possible actions of the irresponsible or the dysfunctional. A proper approach is to address the actual problem they are creating rather than burdening law-abiding, responsible people.

Unfortunately, liberals seem to instinctively take the oppsite approach. They impose restrictions on law-abiding people instead of addressing the problem headon. With firearms, it's largely concerned criminals in the past. Liberals want to ban all sorts of guns on the rationale that criminals might get them, but they recoil at the idea of imposing harsh prison sentences on actual criminals. The NRA has long supported enhance sentences for using guns in violent crimes.

Now we have these mass killings. In terms of the actual numbers, they pale in comparison to the body counts in major cities like Chicago, run by liberal democrats in perpetuity. Yet liberal pols seize on them to use the emotional horror to push through gun controls they could not otherwise pass. I find that tactic odious, and I have little respect for politicians who succumb to it.

The appropriate response is to look at the actual incidents and see what we can do to prevent them. Clearly nothing in any proposed new gun law would have prevented the school shooting. The guns were legally owned. No one is seriously proposing confiscation of hundreds of thousands of legally owned AR15's.

Why can't we focus instead on measures that could provide immediate benefit and on which both sides can agree? Measures like enhanced school security, better training of teachers and student and tighter monitoring of young men with mental health issues. This tragedy would have been prevented by a school door that was somewhat more secure. We spent billions on making every sidewalk in america handicap accessible but we can't spend a little money to secure schools?

The second reason I oppose your suggestions is the slippery slope argument. Once they ban 30 round mags, the next time it will be 10 round mags are too large. After all, who needs more than five? They ban AR15's and AK's, next it will be semi auto and pump shotguns. Who needs that much firepower? Certainly not Nancy Pelosi. She has private security.

This is the flip side of the abortion debate. Liberals fiercely oppose even the most reasonable restrictions because they fear the next step. So they get into ridiculous positions where, like Obama did, they support killing aborted babies who somehow survived.

I don't doubt your good intentions, but I do doubt the good intentions of those pushing ever greater gun restrictions. Their goal is a total prohibition on private ownership and confiscation. The best defense against that is not to give an inch.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:



We spent billions on making every sidewalk in america handicap accessible but we can't spend a little money to secure schools?


I see, so you hate the hadicapped.:eek: You made a rational argument, but the above is all a leftist will see.
 
Quote from Lucrum:

I did not say one had been
I don't think you can buy one from your friendly neighborhood gun dealer.
You could certainly buy one on the international black market and smuggle it in. Fairly easily. Banning them might very well make sense. I'm primarily arguing that banning them doesn't keep them out of the hands that really want them.

I did not say I thought they could be.


Did you ever try to smuggle a rocket into US? I doubt it, so you just speculating that it is easy. I think you are wrong on the simplicity of such action.

The psychos surely would not be able to do it. Similar would be with the rifles that we discuss, if they were banned 30 years ago.
 
Quote from RedDuke:

Did you ever try to smuggle a rocket into US? I doubt it, so you just speculating that it is easy. I think you are wrong on the simplicity of such action.

The psychos surely would not be able to do it. Similar would be with the rifles that we discuss, if they were banned 30 years ago.

Make guns illegal, and it's the same as illegal drugs. High school students can find illegal drugs quite easily. It would be no different were guns illegal. Remove the legal supply and people just go underground as a criminal element sees an opportunity for business.

If you made drugs legal, the criminal element supplying them would be crushed, as they would never be able to sell at comparable prices.
 
Quote from CaptainObvious:

I see, so you hate the hadicapped.:eek: You made a rational argument, but the above is all a leftist will see.

False, many valid points were raised, and I did not see anything about advocating limiting handicapped access.
 
Quote from Tsing Tao:

Make guns illegal, and it's the same as illegal drugs. High school students can find illegal drugs quite easily. It would be no different were guns illegal. Remove the legal supply and people just go underground as a criminal element sees an opportunity for business.

If you made drugs legal, the criminal element supplying them would be crushed, as they would never be able to sell at comparable prices.

Not true, reasonable bans work, like a ban to own bazookas. I do not see them easily and readily available. Same would be with military grade rifles if there were banned few decades ago.
 
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:

Red Duke,

Let me take another shot at explaining my position. It's twofold. One, I don't like my rights being constrained by the possible actions of the irresponsible or the dysfunctional. A proper approach is to address the actual problem they are creating rather than burdening law-abiding, responsible people.

Unfortunately, liberals seem to instinctively take the oppsite approach. They impose restrictions on law-abiding people instead of addressing the problem headon. With firearms, it's largely concerned criminals in the past. Liberals want to ban all sorts of guns on the rationale that criminals might get them, but they recoil at the idea of imposing harsh prison sentences on actual criminals. The NRA has long supported enhance sentences for using guns in violent crimes.

Now we have these mass killings. In terms of the actual numbers, they pale in comparison to the body counts in major cities like Chicago, run by liberal democrats in perpetuity. Yet liberal pols seize on them to use the emotional horror to push through gun controls they could not otherwise pass. I find that tactic odious, and I have little respect for politicians who succumb to it.

The appropriate response is to look at the actual incidents and see what we can do to prevent them. Clearly nothing in any proposed new gun law would have prevented the school shooting. The guns were legally owned. No one is seriously proposing confiscation of hundreds of thousands of legally owned AR15's.

Why can't we focus instead on measures that could provide immediate benefit and on which both sides can agree? Measures like enhanced school security, better training of teachers and student and tighter monitoring of young men with mental health issues. This tragedy would have been prevented by a school door that was somewhat more secure. We spent billions on making every sidewalk in america handicap accessible but we can't spend a little money to secure schools?

The second reason I oppose your suggestions is the slippery slope argument. Once they ban 30 round mags, the next time it will be 10 round mags are too large. After all, who needs more than five? They ban AR15's and AK's, next it will be semi auto and pump shotguns. Who needs that much firepower? Certainly not Nancy Pelosi. She has private security.

This is the flip side of the abortion debate. Liberals fiercely oppose even the most reasonable restrictions because they fear the next step. So they get into ridiculous positions where, like Obama did, they support killing aborted babies who somehow survived.

I don't doubt your good intentions, but I do doubt the good intentions of those pushing ever greater gun restrictions. Their goal is a total prohibition on private ownership and confiscation. The best defense against that is not to give an inch.
Ditto
 
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