judge not moving 10 commandments statue from u.s.a. gov. property

We already went over this.

Basically.... man agreed among men, that lying and stealing
is generally a "bad" thing because it detracts from
the advantages of living in a society. It's that simple.


Long long ago.... men who lived together got really sick
and tired of busting their ass all day long to build/earn something,
and then have their neighbor immediately come over and
just steal it.

This causes massive problems in a society and removes societies
advantages. It is a simple logical step to simply agree among
one another that we won't steal each others stuff.


That way we can focus on building new property without
having to spend tons of time and effort defending it after the fact.

If everyone follows this simple rule, then we are all more productive
and therefore we ALL benefit by following this simple MAN imposed rule.

In a nutshell, that is why stealing is wrong.
Because, in the end, it is harmful to YOURSELF, by creating
a society where everyone will steal from everyone else and cause chaos.


Why is lying bad? Same reason... in the end, it is harmful
to individuals, including yourself.


Societies seem to fall an evolutionary path as well.
Imagine living in a society where it was moral/OK to lie
and steal constantly, from anyone.

What would happen? Everyone would get screwed, constantly.
Stress would be intense. You couldn't work because you would
be at home each day defending your property.
Would you live in a society like that? Of course not.
Chances are, you would move away and live alone or find
another society that acknowledges property rights.
More and more people would do this, until the society crumbled
from a lack of people partaking in it.

The societies with "fair" laws which create the most
advantages for individuals will attract the most people.
Societies with poorly defined rules which do not protect
individual "rights" which it defines, will crumble from
lack of participation or revolt.

peace

axeman



Quote from TM_Direct:

...as for discovery channel, i watch it constantly and notice some evil things in the animal world....from lions killing and eating cubs to chimps killing monkeys...humans have learned that this is wrong...we don't kill , we don;t date our sister ( at least outside of Arkansas:D ) we don't cheat, steal,lie ....and all im asking is why this happened? But i want to hear why lieing is bad, or stealing is bad ect...without citing mans rules...afterall, if you watch discovery, you would see the lions and hyenas in a constant battle of stealing prey...survival of the fittest.....why are humans different? The 'club' over the head example is only one side of the story...somewhere along the lin we were taught these principals....by who? [/B]
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Quote from axeman:

We already went over this.

Basically.... man agreed among men, that lying and stealing
is generally a "bad" thing because it detracts from
the advantages of living in a society. It's that simple.

REALLY?? If Im the biggest, most powerful man...what's in it for me? and who is the man that decided this is bad? when and where was this agreed to???


Long long ago.... men who lived together got really sick
and tired of busting their ass all day long to build/earn something,
and then have their neighbor immediately come over and
just steal it.

THIS MAKES NO SENSE, YOU HAVE NOT TOLD ME WHY IT IS BAD TO STEAL...AGAIN, THE strong survive IN NATURE...LIONS STEAL FORM EVERYTHING because THEY CAN....WHY IS STEALING BAD IF YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT??

This causes massive problems in a society and removes societies
advantages. It is a simple logical step to simply agree among
one another that we won't steal each others stuff.

WHY WOULD YOU NEED A SOCIETY? HWY NOT TRAVEL install HERDS like WOLVES DO? WHY NOT TAKE WHAT YOU WANT WHENEVER YOU WANT IT?


That way we can focus on building new property without
having to spend tons of time and effort defending it after the fact.

If everyone follows this simple rule, then we are all more productive
and therefore we ALL benefit by following this simple MAN imposed rule.

In a nutshell, that is why stealing is wrong.
Because, in the end, it is harmful to YOURSELF, by creating
a society where everyone will steal from everyone else and cause chaos.

IF I TAKE ANOTHER MAN'S HOME AND FOOD, HWY IS THIS HARMFUL TO ME? AS LONG AS I AM SUPERIOR ,,,THIS IS RULE OF THE JUNGLE...WE MAY NOT LIKE IT BUT NATURE IS TOUGH

Why is lying bad? Same reason... in the end, it is harmful
to individuals, including yourself.

NOT SEEING HOW THIS IS HARMFUL TO ME...IF LIEING WAS NOT ILLEGAL, WOULD BIL CLINTON HAVE BEEN IN TROUBLE? MARTHA STEWART? IT'S ONLY HARMFUL because OF RULES IMPOSED.
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Im being a little facetious in my answers and totally agree and understand with everything you said however, I believe these laws were given to man to live with...we didn't;t just create them ourselves in my opinion...otherwise we would just be animals and eat eachother and live like nomads
 
axeman - You are almost exactly right or at least as far as you went. I have lived among those cultures that you describe and they are a form of hell to live in. Those people, however, believed and reasoned that what they were doing was best and suited their circumstances all by their human logic. There needs to be a "ruler" or standard to compare things to and this is where we may have to agree to disagree. If you look at the world the places that are the free-est and most prosperous and respect property and individual rights the most have mostly had a christian influence in their history.
 
I think we DID just create them, for the simple reasons
I posed. It's a natural step...actually, seems quite obvious to me.
It's extremely advantages to us. We create these laws
for ourselves for the same reason we hunt down an animal
an wear it's fur coat to stay warm. It helps US survive.


We have no evidence that these laws were "given" to us.
Yet, we have a lot of evidence that man created these laws
through his use of reason throughout history.


"...otherwise we would just be animals and eat eachother and live like nomads "

This is precisely what seperates us from animals.
We have the faculty of reason, which is precisely WHY
we dont just eat eachother and live like nomads.
We have the ability to understand the advantages of NOT being like this.


One more thing... even though your were being facetious,
your example of the BIG powerful guy is interesting.
Note that even a large powerful man, has FAR FAR
more to gain by living in a modern society like ours, than living
in a chaotic state where he steals and bullies smaller weaker men in a primitive unorganized society. ( The only kind of
society that would allow this kind of behavior)

In a modern society, size doesn't matter :D The "group"
will jail the large and powerful man, and suddenly he isn't
so powerful anymore.

If you read over all your facetious replies, and ask yourself:
What would happen if EVERYONE acted this way, it becomes
quite obvious why this behavior is actually NOT advantageous
to the individual.


peace

axeman




Quote from TM_Direct:



Im being a little facetious in my answers and totally agree and understand with everything you said however, I believe these laws were given to man to live with...we didn't;t just create them ourselves in my opinion...otherwise we would just be animals and eat eachother and live like nomads
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I believe this "ruler" or standard to compare societies should
be human reason. Is it so hard to look at iraqi society, compared
to ours, and logically conclude that our set of man created
rules are superior??

As for christian influence.... is this a historical coincidence
or correlation?

What about the crusades?
The dark ages?
The inquisition?
The witch burnings?

It seems that christianity is also correlated with bloodshed,
and property rights violations to a great degree.

Therefore, although I will admit a christian influence, merely
by sheer numbers, I will not admit this was necessarily a good thing.

The greeks did NOT start out christian, and are the basis
of our modern society. They were later infiltrated by the
christians and fell apart....hmmmmmmmm :D

Our very own government, was explicitly designed to NOT
allow any belief system to rule over all, including christianity.


When the founding fathers said the following, I think they
made it quite clear what they thought of christianity and government:

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”


Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.” -James Madison

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” - Thomas Paine.


Like our founders... when it comes to measuring what is
right or wrong, I will stick to my faculty of reason.


peace

axeman




Quote from Doubter:

axeman - You are almost exactly right or at least as far as you went. I have lived among those cultures that you describe and they are a form of hell to live in. Those people, however, believed and reasoned that what they were doing was best and suited their circumstances all by their human logic. There needs to be a "ruler" or standard to compare things to and this is where we may have to agree to disagree. If you look at the world the places that are the free-est and most prosperous and respect property and individual rights the most have mostly had a christian influence in their history.
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...but in your assumptions you say we are different then animals....why?

don't look at man toady...look at prehistoric man....how did they know that all these things were wrong? certainly, even today there are people that have a hard time understanding this, but i still have not heard why we cannot li or cheat or even steal...You keep saying its for the benefit of the whole society but im not seeing how it is...the mongols ruled for quite some time taking what they wanted from everybody...for every reason you give as to why stealing is bad for one society there is the other side inwhich it was good for another...the mongols the romans ect...they took...they stole.
 
"but in your assumptions you say we are different then animals....why?"

Not an assumption. We are different from animals
in the degree of our ability to reason and conceptualize.

"don't look at man toady...look at prehistoric man....how did they know that all these things were wrong? "

Did they? Real prehistoric man, may not have had enough
language to even allow the possibility of lying.
As for stealing... did they know it was wrong???


" certainly, even today there are people that have a hard time understanding this, but i still have not heard why we cannot li or cheat or even steal...You keep saying its for the benefit of the whole society but im not seeing how it is.."

I've already explained because doing so will break down the
social order and rob you of societies advantages.


"...the mongols ruled for quite some time taking what they wanted from everybody...for every reason you give as to why stealing is bad for one society there is the other side inwhich it was good for another...the mongols the romans ect...they took...they stole. "

Ahhh ok... now I see where you are coming from.
This is quite a bit different. I have only been responding
within the context of man and society.

Now you are discussing society VERSUS society.

I hope it is at least obvious why man should not steal/lie
WITHIN HIS OWN SOCIETY.

As for the mongols and romans.... yes.. it is arguable that it
was advantageous for their SOCIETY to rob/steal from OTHER
SOCIETIES. ( At least in the short run...just like the criminal
who steals from his neighbor and doesn't get caught immediately)

But.... didn't the mongols and romans eventually fall?
Didn't the germans/hitler get DEFEATED when the "other societies"
got tired of their stealing and banned together to destroy him?

The same dynamics exists on a society level. I think it's arguable
that a society which plunders and attacks other societies has
it's days numbered for the same reason an individual criminal
WITHIN a society has his days numbered.

Of course...there are always exceptions. Some criminals
die rich :D But this is generally not true.

peace

axeman
 
As for christian influence.... is this a historical coincidence
or correlation?
axeman
___________________________________________
Whichever, it is still there today.
_____________________________________

What about the crusades?
The dark ages?
The inquisition?
The witch burnings?
axeman
_______________________________
Done in the "name" of christianity. Even so I am sure there atrocicities on both sides.

We have already done the dual quote. I still say there has been a christian influence in the founding and history of the USA. The knowledge of that certainly made all of the founders fear a state religion of any kind because men are still going to be involved. My problem with the human reason is working in so many varied cultures and then seeing what they come up with as their answer to justice without a standard and I believe in our mix we have the best.
 
mongols and romans lasted a lot longer then any other empires....My point is and remains that man did not just create these rules on his own....I believe they were given to him by God...Obviously you and doubter feel differently.
 
Obviously you and doubter feel differently.
TM
_____________________________________

TM Sorry I mislead you. I too feel very strongly that these rules or standards came from God. Two ways 1. via the commands and the scriptures and 2. imparted somewhat as "eternity in their hearts.":)
 
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