join Group One / DRW Trading Group or Goldman as i-banking analyst?

[Hydroblunt]

Quote from Deringer:

Sorry, but now that is just awful advice.

There aren't ex-GS/MS ibanking associates walking around. If they are, it's by choice and they're just taking a vacation before they pursue something new.

The road to other jobs is very accessible for former investment bankers, especially from top-tier firms. They're not sitting at home waiting by the phone.

But ex-traders who have failed? Now *those* guys are walking around or sitting around, and they have to keep on trading because they have nowhere else to go.

Nonsense,

Most I-bankers burn out & quit, because you have to be near insane to succeed as an I-banker. Rarely does anyone get fired, ppl simply do not make it to the next step and just collapse.
There are a lot of ex-associates walking around in NYC (im sure nowhere near the failed prop traders), trying to join a venture fund, trying to trade for themselves or simply looking for a new field because they can't do I-banking anymore. The I-bank model pretty much requires grunts to do the sh*t work and that exactly what the first 2-3 years are for, grunt work. Up to the person to get out of that into the next level, which is not that much better. About 10% of entry level make it to the next phase and about 2-3% make it to the VP level.

GS is the most elite among the I-bank but also the most inhumane, anally retentive and most brutal. It will be hell, no mercy. Forget any type of humane treatment even if there are laws involved, if you even make a sound, it goes against you. If you want to succeed, you have to sacrifice yourself to the I-bank, you live, eat and sleep I-banking.

One thing people have to understand is that I-banking is probably a mature industry right now. There are only so many positions and 1000s of applicants applying. The turnover is very high so there are always openings. It is much more competitive now than before, hence why the entry level salaries have went down significantly (when adjusted for inflation). Standard is 55-60k base, plus maybe a signing bonus (of which you lose half to the government) and maybe a end of the year bonus. GS and the top top tier get a certain % higher in all categories.

The next new thing for Ibankers seems to put in their 2-3 years and go to venture capital funds. Lets see how long that game lasts.

 

[tomcole]

I'm amazed how little most of the verbose posters on this thread know about I-banking, institutional trading or major broker/dealers.

Paper traders continue on, even in career advice

 

[carl1111]

agreed.

 

[Hydroblunt]

Quote from tomcole:

I'm amazed how little most of the verbose posters on this thread know about I-banking, institutional trading or major broker/dealers.

Paper traders continue on, even in career advice

Judging from your posts, you do not even fully distinguish between Investment Banking and Quant Trading Desk. 2 different departments that officially barely communicate within the same firm.

I have several friends in the I-bank industry and I've worked with I-bankers for over 3 years. I have seen their paychecks, their work, done their work, listen to their constant problems, even advise them, etc. I've dealt with first years to MDs, so I know WTF I'm talking about and if I don't I'll call up my friend and get the details (as long as it's not inside info). Main reason I quickly changed my opinion about going into I-banking is because I worked with them while in my last semester.

 

[phenomena]

Quote from tomcole:

From the tone and what he has said, I highly doubt carl has any job offers from any tier 1 firms, nor did he graduate a "pedigree" school in Chi-town in 3 years. Nor did he intern at GS.

He simply lacks the understanding / knowledge that someone who interned would have. Also, how smart is a kid who says he graduated in 3 years from a high-end school, which would have tremendously deep career counseling staff, and instead of seeking their thoughts on this, he starts asking on this website if GS is worthy of his time and efforts?

FWIW, last years recruits from quant schools at GS are making all-in substantially more than any numbers posted so far on this thread.

actually they started hiring quants and technical majors because they cost substantially LESS than MBAs...ask them they will tell you when you go to their presentations @ MIT etc.

 

[timmyz]

here's what i banks really paid mbas a few years ago. i was in one of these firms and the numbers are dead on.

carl, you're gonna hear what you wanna hear, so i ain't gonna spend a lot of time convincing you. go to GS dumbasss...the brand name on your resume is what's gonna open doors for you...

rufus know's what he's talking about. you will be lucky if you make more than 100k as a first year analyst. depends on the group you're in, and most importantly it depends on whether your boss likes you.

EDIT: obviosuly the cut and paste didn't go well, just go to www.thedeal.com and search for "investment banking salary"


Company
Base

Stub bonus

Signing bonus

Relocation

Other
Banc of America
$85,000

$40,000

$30,000

$10,000
Private equity investments
Bear, Stearns & Co.
95,000 (additional 12,000 for meal expenses)

30,000

30,000

N/A
$50,000 loan if signed by 10/6, $30,000 if signed by 12/15
Broadview
80,000

30,000

20,000

.
.
Chase H&Q
85,000

35,000

100,0001

5,000
1$75,000 forgivable over three years
Credit Suisse First Boston
85,000

35,000

25,000

12,000
$5,000 levered to $50,000 in PE fund ($5,000 is taken from stub bonus)
Deutsche Bank
85,000

30,000

30,000

10,000
At the money options (25K divided by the current stock price; 20 days of vacation)
DLJ
85,000

35,000

25,000

12,000
$5,000 levered to$ 50,000 in PE fund ($5,000 is taken from stub bonus)
Goldman, Sachs & Co.
85,000

30,000

30,000

available on a case-by-case basis
At the money options ($20K divided by the current stock price)
ING
85,000

30,000

30,000

7,500
.
J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.
85,000

35,000

100,0002

5,000
2$75,000 forgivable over three years
Lehman Brothers Inc.
85,000

30,000

25,000

10,000
$3,000 levered to $30,000 in a private equity fund; $30,000 loan at prime
Merrill Lynch & Co.
85,000

30,000

25,000

13,5003
Payouts on $100,000 invested in PE fund
3plus $750 for each dependent
Morgan Stanley
85,000

30,000

25,000

6,000
.
Robertson Stephens inc.
85,000

30,000

25,000

8,000
Leverage investment
Salomon Smith Barney
85,000

35,000

30,0004

12,000
4must accept by Nov. 15 to get before 2001
UBS Warburg llc
85,000

30,000

30,000

5,000
.

 

[Randek]

Quote from Hydroblunt:

Judging from your posts, you do not even fully distinguish between Investment Banking and Quant Trading Desk. 2 different departments that officially barely communicate within the same firm.

I have several friends in the I-bank industry and I've worked with I-bankers for over 3 years. I have seen their paychecks, their work, done their work, listen to their constant problems, even advise them, etc. I've dealt with first years to MDs, so I know WTF I'm talking about and if I don't I'll call up my friend and get the details (as long as it's not inside info). Main reason I quickly changed my opinion about going into I-banking is because I worked with them while in my last semester.

So you've done investment banking work before?


But these were your quotes before:

Quote from Hydroblunt:

I was working a graphics job at an I-Bank before I even graduated and was making more than my friends that graduated the year before and were working at Lehman Brothers.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=700784&highlight=lehman#post700784


And I love this one.

Quote from Hydroblunt:

Hey I busted my a$$ trying to get onto Lehman sales desk back in 2001-2002, going through an alumni that was up pretty well in there at a young age. But I was not Ivy League MBA, so no matter what he did, my resume went in the garbage. Ole boys club and all.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=812004&highlight=lehman#post812004



So it's funny you claim to have done investment banking work before even though all you've ever done was graphical presentations during college, but then, as you said, you "busted your ass trying to get into Lehman" but failed because you weren't good enough to be there in the first place.

Just hating the entire industry to make yourself feel better?

LOL

 

[carl1111]

true.

 

[BradKrom]

Quote from Copernicus:

wharton is the most overrated school in the universe, especially when it comes to finance. check the finance elective list at Wharton and compare to Columbia and NYU, Wharton looks like a community college.

Haha, thats great...I'm sure you have intimate knowledge of all 3 programs after skimming their finance electives list. Don't get me wrong, I think stern is a great school, but having wharton consistently ranked at the top of the list each year even when administrators/ faculty refuse to talk to the press about rankings (harvard started this and per usual penn followed suit) gives a pretty good indication of the caliber of the grads/ recruiters perceptions. In all fairness though, I'm clearly biased, but those who have no experience would probably do better to not say anything at all.

Carl: I would say we're in a similar boat, but you're a little ways ahead of me. I'm a junior and I've actually decided to take this semester off to trade full time (picked it up towards the end of last year and have been doing it ever sense) as to avoid having to make the i-banking v. trading career decision. After my experiences, I'd say that I'm most likely going to pursue a sales/trading job hopefully at a tier 1 bank on wall st. However, since I've had some exposure to trading, I'm thinking about trying to do an internship at a bank over the summer to see whats really for me. They're pretty much at opposite ends of the spectrum as others have said, but there are definitely merits to both. Right now though, I'd probably take the sure bet banking job...yes your life is going to suck, but with no type of exposure to trading and your apparent affinity to running flows/ love of excel, why not take the sure bet, especially at a shop like GS.

Brad

 

[Copernicus]

this is elitetrader, not the thevault.com

wanna be traders, at tier 1 firms, and aspiring college juniors/seniors should realize YOU ARE THE MOST CLUELESS INDIVIDUALS OUT THERE, bunch of mooks with opinions on things you have no idea about, finance 101 hasnt taught you anything yet.