Iterative Refinement

[romanus]

Quote from Spydertrader:

If you need proof, simply review the recent discussions surrounding Peak Volume. I presented a simple and straightforward definition. Note how many posts attempted to overcomplicate the process. Note how many posts failed to simply look at a chart and differentiate. Note how I was asked if a certain bar really was Peak Volume - even though I had clearly indicated it was not several moments before the question. Note how many people, so many times I have lost count, simply ignore, misinterpret or dismiss assistance provided by a whole range of individuals contributing to this thread.

Guilty as charged.

As a side note, what I have found quite illuminating, is an accidental exercise, I call the "Avi 8" drill.
I had all his posts copied in a word doc a few months ago, because I found them to be very helpful. Upon reviewing them again a few days ago I discovered something surprising: They almost never had any questions in them.
So, basically, here's somebody who did not get as much personal attention as some other posters (including myself) in terms of posting questions and getting the answers. Nevertheless, he learned by reading the journal and doing something else. In case anybody missed what that something else is, here's the quote:

Quote from Avi 8:

...
The confidence comes from lots of screen time and KNOWING that I do in fact KNOW what to 'expect' next...

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1667147#post1667147

 

[gravitonium77]

Quote from Tums:

Gucci is embarking on a discovery expedition of his own. Maybe you can give it a try too? After all, repeating a "mistake" will not get you the correct answer, it will only reinforce the mistake.

Touche' !!!!!!!!

THis is precisely my point. Sometime back I mentioned that perfect practice makes perfect, not just practice.

Many of us here don't know if we're doing it right or not. Who knows, I could be annoating and seeing everything I'm supposed to, with one slight misunderstanding.

And, along the way to adjusting that one little misunderstanding, I end up "adjusting" all the stuff I was doing correctly. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. ONe ends up being stuck in a failure spiral. And the only way out is through the shear luck that would bring you back to doing what you were doing in the beginning, sans the one little error.

Please take the above as a meta-example, not exactly what occurs. I think it does get the idea across.

Thank you for your thoughts, Tums.

 

[ljyoung]

Quote from Tums:

I have no criteria.

When I want to know if my chart is on the right track, I compare it to Spyder's.
Maybe you have compared yours, but considered the "minor" differences do not make a major difference?

As I've said before, this thread is Spyder's 'dime' and it is to him that I listen to the most. Like you, I also compare my annotated charts to the benchmark, which is Spyder's chart. Now if I was a sensitive little goy I might get irritated about the peculiar way you have annotated your sentence. But I'm not and I don't.

As for being unconcerned with minor differences let me say this. I spent 15 years as a spectroscopist and made a living from looking at whisps of differences, like the loss of an isosbestic point when a third spectroscopically-active species entered a reaction. Which is to say that some of us are fortunate to be able to apply skills learned elsewhere to the process of viewing a chart. I say this not to belittle you, but rather to make the point that we all have unique backgrounds which, if we choose, we may use to make helpful contributions to the content of this thread.

lj

 

[Tums]

Quote from gravitonium77:
...I stll believe that a key issue is HOW to see the fractals. And if you can't see the fractals, all sense of context is flushed down the toliet. It is NOT as easy as "tapes make traverses". Or it is, and I'm not hearing the definitions correctly. Often I see a tape go so long that it not only makes for a traverse width, it becomes a traverse itself. It's easy to see this on EOD chart, but as it's forming, one has no idea. The tape just keeps goin and a goin. THen one looks for the retrace (as the second segment of the traverse) and instead gets a pt3 traverse IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION (a non-dom traverse). To this set of eyes, the fractal just took a quantum jump (quantum as in the theory, not in some big leap).

To anybody who is having problem with tapes/traverses/channels, I would suggest you to take a look at what Gucci is doing...

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2004350&highlight=comprehensive#post2004350

 

[callmate]

Quote from romanus:

Guilty as charged.

As a side note, what I have found quite illuminating, is an accidental exercise, I call the "Avi 8" drill.
thread.php?s=&postid=1667147#post1667147[/url]

Yes I found Avi 8's postings very helpful, I was lucky enough to be in a chatroom with him once whilst we were waiting for Spyder to turn up and he took me through various steps which had the affect of having numerous "AHA" moments.

What is continuation in a downtrend? Price heading lower? If price stops heading lower is that not change? ( Avi 8)

Where does the 'change' happen for a new channel direction? On point 1? ( Avi 8)

What can make a point 1? FTT? VE? LTL Bounce? ( Avi 8)


What are the possibilities of price and volume? ( Avi 8)

The three ways to go from point two to point three?

 

[Tums]

Quote from gravitonium77:
...Often I see a tape go so long that it not only makes for a traverse width, it becomes a traverse itself.

This has been explained a few times. I do not have the links. Maybe someone can find it?

 

[romanus]

Quote from gravitonium77:

...
Where is this located? Please point it out. I honestly don't know to what you refer here. I believe you mentioned something about accelarating pace. But then said it's not the same as just a pace change. But then never distingquished between the two.
...

If you can point to a single post, with a single UNAMBIGUOUS definition of PEAK volume, then
...

Quote from treeline:

Thanks to Aurum for reposting Spydertrader's definition:

"Peak Volume also needs three bars to create acceleration of the Gaussians Slope."

I left out the word "slope" in my first attempt. I think part of my original answer is correct in that the increase in Volume from Bar 2 to Bar 3 must be larger than the increase in Volume from Bar 1 to Bar 2. I think my mistake was in not recognizing that the 2nd increase must be large enough to create an accelerated Gaussian Slope that's visibly noticeable on the chart. In my example, the increase was 10,000 from Bar 1 to Bar 2 and 10,001 from Bar 2 to Bar 3. A one contract difference would not be enough to create an acceleration of the Gaussians Slope.

Quote from Spydertrader:

There you go. The slope needs to accelerate. Now, all that remains is to differentiate between actual Peak Volume from a 'Step Up' in pace (Pace Acceleration). In addition, the appearance of Peak Volume, just like any other signal for change, requires correct timing. Remember the fractal on which you trade.

- Spydertrader

 

[guavaman]

Quote from gravitonium77:

The implication here is that all people learn, understand, progress, and perceive the same way.

NEWS FLASH Everyone who has fail to master the method gets frustrated.

Those who do succeed at any endeavor not only persevere, but welcome the personal responsibility associated with acquiring the necessary skills to achieve that success. They don't apply blame of their lack progress to others. They get on with getting the knowledge.

 

[romanus]

Quote from Avi 8:

How did we know what must happen today at the open from yesterday's closing action?

I cheated:
Since we 'see' this traverse as having a very steep slope and a very narrow width, we expect to 'see' the market indicate a need to 'fan' out our traverse (hence the BO on decreasing Volume followed by a Sym Pennant).

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1903756#post1903756

Quote from Spydertrader:

You don't see a retrace because, the market didn't provide one. However, the market did provide Lateral Movement, first on the YM (See 10:20 YM Bar), and since, the YM leads the ES, we expect to 'see' the ES follow where the YM leads. Note how the 'Closes' line up on the ES (10:15 and 10:20) where Price moves left to right. Since we 'see' this channel having a very steep slope and a very narrow width, we expect to 'see' the market indicate a need to 'fan' out our channel (hence the BO on decreasing Volume followed by a Sym Pennant).

Note how this example differs from when the market indicates the FTT formed a Point One.

- Spydertrader

 

[ljyoung]

Quote from guavaman:

Hopefully this included an IBGS w/ increasing volume of a non dom traverse

How contextually different this is from the three IBGS's we saw yesterday afternoon. All four (data provider differences aside) the same, yet all four different. Context - the alluring outfit Ms. Market wears as she stomps all over your (for clarity - a generic 'your') firmly held convictions.

lj