Is working Asian hours that bad?

[cjbuckley4]

While you're probably more interested in actual opinions about whether working Asian hours is that bad, maybe as a millennial who did some job hunting before graduation I can posit some useful ideas.

I find it both a bit insulting (I'm narcissistic and entitled less we forget) that millennials are held in such low regard while I sadly cannot disagree with many of these points. I myself went through a period of either resignation or shameless entitlement during my job hunt where I said "this trading thing is cool but if I can't get a job that is XYZ, why don't I just move to Colorado and ski?" This attitude I believe is emblematic of the problem. We (at least kids from my background) have been convinced by recruiters, HR staff, attracting professional interest for the first time or whatever that we all deserve amazing jobs. I saw a lot of kids I interned with this summer forgo what I accepted to be a pretty good job because of nebulous concerns about wanting to make unrealistic amounts of money or not having to wear business casual, etc.

A couple questions/suggestions regarding your post:
- I see you're in NYC. Have you posted your job listing to Columbia LionShare or NYU whatever? Despite being millennials, I know a few classmates that might be good fits.
- Do your job postings indicate that this is for the Asian session? There's a catch 22 here. Post that it's for the Asian session and you may deter good candidates, but those good candidates wouldn't be takers anyway, right?
- Be aware of where we are in the recruiting cycle. The banks and prop shops have taken a lot of the university talent already. Maybe not for full-time as I've only done internship recruiting but be aware that you may be getting 1 of two things:
1. Kids that didn't make the cut for these opportunities
2. Kids that did make the cut and are shopping their offers because the 100K or so starting they seek to eschew is insufficient.
- Be realistic about how rare a competent CS and stats student really is. I won't make judgments about what constitutes competent in your estimation but I go to a school with a lot of bright and motivated individuals and there are very few kids I know who fulfill both of these requirements. The CS department has an optional intro stats for engineers course which can be avoided easily and the math and stats departments only require intro to java. You meet a lot more dual CS and math/stats majors who are idealistic freshmen than seniors. People wash out of this combination because each degree alone is difficult and marketable. Throw in the fact you need someone you can get along with and you've just slimmed this to a very small group of kids who have most likely been flown to Chicago by prop shops a number of times already. They will have expectations and some preconceived notion of what they're worth.

 

[Xela]

The banks and prop shops have taken a lot of the university talent already.

This is exactly what I was thinking.

December is a pretty bad time to be looking to fill job vacancies like this, I suspect, because among the ones planning "something like this" as a career, the best ones have surely already found a position by now?

Be realistic about how rare a competent CS and stats student really is. I won't make judgments about what constitutes competent in your estimation but I go to a school with a lot of bright and motivated individuals and there are very few kids I know who fulfill both of these requirements.

I'm a couple of years older than you, but I agree with this, too - and your other observations.

I wouldn't have been applying for this anyway (for several reasons, in my case, but the Asian session working hours would certainly have put me off. And by the way I have neither any sense of entitlement nor a narcissistic personality.)

 

[cjbuckley4]

This is exactly what I was thinking.

December is a pretty bad time to be looking to fill job vacancies like this, I suspect, because among the ones planning "something like this" as a career, the best ones have surely already found a position by now?





I'm a couple of years older than you, but I agree with this, too - and your other observations.

I wouldn't have been applying for this anyway (for several reasons, in my case, but the Asian session working hours would certainly have put me off. And by the way I have neither any sense of entitlement nor a narcissistic personality.)

Glad someone a few years older can corroborate my undergraduate ramblings. I personally would be more than willing to do the Asian session as a "foot in the door." I'd even consider it as a long term career but I would have to weigh the fact that career advancement could land me at <Chicago/Amsterdam prop shops> Shanghai office.

@sle I'm sure you're far from concerned about whether I personally would work an Asian session but I think my last sentence makes a salient point. The millennials you *want* to hire are more concerned with career advancement than pay or hours. If you convinced me that I could be an integral part of your new venture's future or that my next employer will look favorably on working for you I'd be a lot more apt to come onboard.

Also, I realize it sounds like I'm trying to convince you to lower your standards. I of course understand that trading and software are two areas where hiring someone who doesn't know what they don't know can cause more problems than leaving the position vacant. To this point, let me clarify that I'm not recommending that your settle but rather encouraging you to better and more relevantly incentivize the best new hires available. The "competition" recruits hard...signing bonuses, big promises, sexy offices, "work hard play hard" attitudes in prop trading...it is certainly nontrivial to attract worthwhile candidates.

 

[comagnum]

Is working Asian hours that bad?
____________________________________________________________________________

Not if you live on Maui

 

[ironchef]

No way. I want someone sitting next to me - my stuff is tricky enough as is, without the complications of a remote setup. Previously, we'd share the work-load between myself and my co-PM, but due to some issues we are splitting up, so I need someone to at least pick up part of the work.

This is the first time I am having problems finding bright and motivated people, might be the sign of the times. Or it is also possible that I am looking for a person that does not exist - someone that is interested in finance, has the IT skillset I need, has the personality that I can get along with and that is interested in working within my setup. Anyway, just ranting 'cause two people said "NO" and I have been courting them for a few weeks.

Why don't you try some more matured, i.e., older folks? We don't need much sleep and are too old to party. Furthermore, we are supported by SS and so you can save money by just paying us peanuts.

 

[Sig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

The word "entitled" seems to come up a lot when describing them. These are the same kids that in college wanted "safe spaces" where you can't say anything mean to them in that space.

I think you perhaps haven't employed any of the A players coming from the Millennial generation and are relying on a combination of stereotypes you got from Wikipedia, of all places, typical grumpy old man "kids these days" mentality, and C players who you're forced to hire because of characteristics A and B.
It's kind of funny really, what all the "anti-PC" types vilify is what the rest of us call civil behavior and treating others the way you'd like to be treated. The non-PC behavior you're fighting to be able to engage in is what most of us simply call being an asshole. I mean listen to what you wrote, you apparently you want to be able to say mean things to people and are against a space where we don't engage in that behavior!
All the A players from my (gen-x) generation forward have realized that they have enough opportunities that they can live by a "no asshole rule" and just don't have to work for assholes if they don't want to. So the "kids these days are entitled", "kids these days demand safe space" types end up with only the C players, who probably are over-entitled. Basically you're stuck in an adverse feedback loop that is entirely of your own making!

To sle's original question, any good software developer with a stats background is going to have two choices:
1. Work in a hedge fund for big money, prestige, and a big bonus.
2. Work at a startup with the prospect for life changing amounts of money with options and working on something that's going to change the world.
That's your competition, and it's pretty stiff with a significant shortage of good quality people of the type you want. I'm sure you're doing something interesting and paying pretty well, but it's just not going to compare to 1 or 2.
I think your strategy of pursuing recent college grads isn't optimal because these guys are all gunning for 1 or 2, are heavily recruited, and are less experienced/poorer so more easily swayed by the wining and dining those firms can offer. On the other hand, you may be able to find a returning to the workforce parent or a recent retiree and/or empty nester with a technical background who's kept up with the times who are overlooked by the 1 and 2 types that you can snap up for a fair price and get the benefit of their added experience as well. There are a few recruiting firms out there that specialize in placing these types of people, search for "returning to the workforce", but if you look around your network you'd be surprised what you can turn up yourself.

 

[sle]

Dude, the job in question is in a big hedge fund with all of the blah that goes with it. I honestly suspect that your number 2, a startup job, attracts the type of people I'd want to work with and I am just scraping the bottom. A bunch of guys I've passed on because they were too much of a bro, for example, even though they seem to have the tech skills.

I would rather hire someone less competent technically, but someone that would be a good person then the other way. Older people are hard from that perspective because they are very experienced in hiding their true face until it's too late.

 

[Sig]

Dude, the job in question is in a big hedge fund with all of the blah that goes with it. I honestly suspect that your number 2, a startup job, attracts the type of people I'd want to work with and I am just scraping the bottom. A bunch of guys I've passed on because they were too much of a bro, for example, even though they seem to have the tech skills.

I would rather hire someone less competent technically, but someone that would be a good person then the other way. Older people are hard from that perspective because they are very experienced in hiding their true face until it's too late.

Have you thought about ex-military coming off their 5 year Academy or ROTC obligation? The hours are nothing they're not used to, military folks are generally intensely loyal and definitely won't be too bro, they generally don't have unreasonable salary expectations, and at the very least you'll get people with engineering degrees if not math/comp sci. There are a few recruiters who specialize in this kind of thing, and the military network is pretty tight if you know anyone inside it.

 

[xandman]

Have you thought about ex-military coming off their 5 year Academy or ROTC obligation? The hours are nothing they're not used to, military folks are generally intensely loyal and definitely won't be too bro, they generally don't have unreasonable salary expectations, and at the very least you'll get people with engineering degrees if not math/comp sci. There are a few recruiters who specialize in this kind of thing, and the military network is pretty tight if you know anyone inside it.

Isn't going to happen, though. STEM ex-military get great packages with govt contractors while living in low-cost of living areas. It's a slice of heaven.

He would have to be a real dellusioned SOB to pursue something on Wall Street.

 

[Maverick74]

I think you perhaps haven't employed any of the A players coming from the Millennial generation and are relying on a combination of stereotypes you got from Wikipedia, of all places, typical grumpy old man "kids these days" mentality, and C players who you're forced to hire because of characteristics A and B.
It's kind of funny really, what all the "anti-PC" types vilify is what the rest of us call civil behavior and treating others the way you'd like to be treated. The non-PC behavior you're fighting to be able to engage in is what most of us simply call being an asshole. I mean listen to what you wrote, you apparently you want to be able to say mean things to people and are against a space where we don't engage in that behavior!
All the A players from my (gen-x) generation forward have realized that they have enough opportunities that they can live by a "no asshole rule" and just don't have to work for assholes if they don't want to. So the "kids these days are entitled", "kids these days demand safe space" types end up with only the C players, who probably are over-entitled. Basically you're stuck in an adverse feedback loop that is entirely of your own making!

To sle's original question, any good software developer with a stats background is going to have two choices:
1. Work in a hedge fund for big money, prestige, and a big bonus.
2. Work at a startup with the prospect for life changing amounts of money with options and working on something that's going to change the world.
That's your competition, and it's pretty stiff with a significant shortage of good quality people of the type you want. I'm sure you're doing something interesting and paying pretty well, but it's just not going to compare to 1 or 2.
I think your strategy of pursuing recent college grads isn't optimal because these guys are all gunning for 1 or 2, are heavily recruited, and are less experienced/poorer so more easily swayed by the wining and dining those firms can offer. On the other hand, you may be able to find a returning to the workforce parent or a recent retiree and/or empty nester with a technical background who's kept up with the times who are overlooked by the 1 and 2 types that you can snap up for a fair price and get the benefit of their added experience as well. There are a few recruiting firms out there that specialize in placing these types of people, search for "returning to the workforce", but if you look around your network you'd be surprised what you can turn up yourself.

No bro, I went back to grad school and spent a LOT of time around these kids. Like a LOT of time around them. The Wikipedia link was just to get the ball rolling. Trust me, half my friends are from that generation. I think I can speak accurately on this perspective. And btw, I'm not that old and certainly not a grumpy old man. LOL.