Is there an order in the Universe?

[seneca_roman]

Quote from neophyte321:

yeah, people get hit by trains also. That doesn't make it moral to push people in front of them.

Abortion is seriously off-topic here...

Im not religiously dogmatic by any stretch, but I'd rather look to the "heavans" to find the meaning of life, than be preached to by some Biologist that we are little more the pure chance events, playing a mind-boggling miniscule role in an unfathomably long evolutionary chain ...

and Yes, there is perfect order in the universe!

How do you reconcile this perfect order to genocide like the holacost; Rwanda, Inquisition, etc?

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from neophyte321:

yeah, people get hit by trains also. That doesn't make it moral to push people in front of them.

Abortion is seriously off-topic here...

Im not religiously dogmatic by any stretch, but I'd rather look to the "heavans" to find the meaning of life, than be preached to by some Biologist that we are little more the pure chance events, playing a mind-boggling miniscule role in an unfathomably long evolutionary chain ...

and Yes, there is perfect order in the universe!

what you or i would "rather" do has no bearing on what is. every step in mans advancement there has been the temptation to say "goddidit case closed" and stop looking for answers.
science though is the search for answers. science cant advance unless someone says"god did not do it" and actually searches for what did do it.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ElCubano:

I believe fine tuning can only be accomplished thru design. the radio doesnt tune itself to the station you want to litsen to does it?? just asking..cuz i am one to think they do equal each other at least in this argument...

natural selection can fine tune. example you have a population of rabbits that produce white and brown offspring. the climate changes so that more time is spent under snowcovered conditions. the foxes can easily find the brown rabbits. over time only white rabbits are able to survive and reproduce.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Actually, there is no tuning involved in anything random. Tuning implies mind at work, not mindlessness.

Quote from vhehn:

natural selection can fine tune.

 

[Free Thinker]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Actually, there is no tuning involved in anything random. Tuning implies mind at work, not mindlessness.

it is not a mind at work it is survival of the fittest.

 

[2cents]

Quote from jem:

Please this guy is the author of string theory. it is a given to him that the anthropic principles pointed aobut by other sceintists are real.

Study it learn it you will be surprised.

If you had this guys mind and did not believe in millions of other universes you would believe there was a design.

The anthropic principle is real science that is driving the best minds in physics to speculation.

so what? and what do the guys who've come up with M-theory say? whats the latest on inflation theory? at the mo' string & M-theories are just that, theories, admitedly more elegant/seductive than the "standard model" with all its plugged-in "constants", but theories still... how abt waiting for a few confirmations, its only a few years away now with LIGO etc... we still don't understand the various forms of energy / matter... nor the "exact" topology of our n-dim universe at different scales
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0264-9381/21/17/012
http://www.math.utah.edu/~carlson/research/eprints/pdf/CHGMCS.pdf
http://www1.kcn.ne.jp/~iittoo/
http://www.nature.tsukuba.ac.jp/HP.Eng/Math_4Eng.htm
http://www.math.utah.edu/~carlson/research/eprints/pdf/realcubics.pdf

... mind u, its pretty big! and messy! take a look at the SDSS http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1190447#post1190447

as for the "anthropic" principle, its just another disease of the mind... http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1241268&highlight=earthlike#post1241268 no need for a grand design to explain away any form of causal-type relationships we don't fully grasp yet...

why do ppl need to believe in a grand design, and particularly one that is deemed to be 'unfathomable'? how does that help with anything? beats me... don't ppl have better things to do???

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

That is a theory, not a fact.

The concept of fine tuning suggests a plan, a direction, or a law at work that governs natural behavior, and the theory of natural selection is hardly considered a law of nature.

Quote from vhehn:

it is not a mind at work it is survival of the fittest.

 

[stu]

Quote from ElCubano:

I believe fine tuning can only be accomplished thru design. the radio doesnt tune itself to the station you want to litsen to does it?? just asking..cuz i am one to think they do equal each other at least in this argument...

You could look at it this way ... a hole in the dirst doesn't fine tune itself around water to make a puddle does it? Doesn't the water 'adapt' itself to fill and fit with the hole?

So there is no need for any fine tuning, as the very nature of differing things can adapt (or not) to fit others.

It looks like order, but is anyway only things doing what their constituent elements will or won't do with other elements under ordinary circumstances - without any other agent involved.

We can make things fit, like with radio waves and transmitters, but things such as Air America were not required as constituent parts of the universe billions of years ago anymore than life itself.

Hope this helps
Up the Cubs.

 

[ElCubano]

Quote from vhehn:

natural selection can fine tune. example you have a population of rabbits that produce white and brown offspring. the climate changes so that more time is spent under snickered conditions. the foxes can easily find the brown rabbits. over time only white rabbits are able to survive and reproduce.

perhaps...but in the endless of endless things that needed to fit just right to get us to where we are...id bet on fine tunning from an intelligent designer ( being a betting type of person)...think of the vast amounts of things needed to get us here and the odds of it hapenening the way they should have and perhaps you to would be on our side...

just one thing out of the million combinations is different and we wouldn't be here...so again we can argue both ways..but in the end the only difference is how YOU want to look at it...peace

 

[2cents]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

That is a theory, not a fact.

that the fittest survives, is a theory, not a fact??? dude... from monocellular organisms all the way up the food chain... and prior to that, here's your best candidate so far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAH_world_hypothesis ... forgit abt your god thingie... only in your mind...