Is Health Care and Education, "Infrastructure" ?

[nitro]

I just picked up a book and I am reading it briskly:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2654866#post2654866

It occurred to me that both health care and education should be deemed in a similar sense if not the same as "Infrastructure". Both handled or not correctly will have multiplicative effects for the better or worse of a society.

 

[nitro]

Sorry. I goofed the title of the Poll. The title should read:

"Can Health Care and Education be considered "Infrastructure" ?

 

[jem]

yes -

If we had a system of health care that was not a burden to employers they would have lower per unit costs.

If employers have less on the job training their costs go down as well.

This does not necessarily mean we should have national health care or national education. But it is the best economic argument I know for the socialists. I am damned surprised they are not making it.

if you are going to bailout automakers. You make them change the way they do business, but you also remove some of their costs. You replace the union benefits with a lower cost system. But we know obama is more interested in union votes than doing anything which makes sense or cents.

 

[nitro]

Well said, but imo you do not go far enough. Imagine there were no roads, no bridges, no electricity. These are the raw materials to a business today. Why isn't an educated work force seen as part of those raw materials? How can a US laborer justify four++ years of University, coming out with $80,000 in debt, compared to someone that got a degree from the India Institute of Technology or the Chinese Institute of Technology, and owes nothing? The business solution is to seek H1B employees. And since businesses are becoming multi-national now, it doesn't matter, corporations will sell their products to them instead of the broke American worker - a dire situation for American workers.

As far as health care, let me give different analogy. If my business makes heavy use of a truck, and that truck requires routine maintenance, and every time it breaks down it could potentially wipe out a large portion of my profits, I am in a precarious business to say the least. Of course, trucks are replaceable pretty easily. Why isn't the health of the work force seen the same way? The answer is, with one billion Indians and one and a half billion Chinese, replacement is easy enough with human capital as well.

US Corporations complain of an uneducated work force. Sheesh, if it weren't for government sanctioned education in the rest of the world, I suspect the situation would be the same the world over. It is a vicious circle in the US...

Quote from jem:

yes -

If we had a system of health care that was not a burden to employers they would have lower per unit costs.

If employers have less on the job training their costs go down as well.

This does not necessarily mean we should have national health care or national education. But it is the best economic argument I know for the socialists. I am damned surprised they are not making it.

if you are going to bailout automakers. You make them change the way they do business, but you also remove some of their costs. You replace the union benefits with a lower cost system. But we know obama is more interested in union votes than doing anything which makes sense or cents.

 

[loik]

Quote from nitro:

I just picked up a book and I am reading it briskly:

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2654866#post2654866

It occurred to me that both health care and education should be deemed in a similar sense if not the same as "Infrastructure". Both handled or not correctly will have multiplicative effects for the better or worse of a society.

Only in a collectivist society, so if your not a member(should be voluntary) of the collective, you should not be required to pay.

 

[dcraig]

Quote from loik:

Only in a collectivist society, so if your not a member(should be voluntary) of the collective, you should not be required to pay.

Unless you go and live in cave somewhere, you are a member, like it or not.

 

[loik]

Quote from jem:

yes -

If we had a system of health care that was not a burden to employers they would have lower per unit costs.

If employers have less on the job training their costs go down as well.

This does not necessarily mean we should have national health care or national education. But it is the best economic argument I know for the socialists. I am damned surprised they are not making it.

if you are going to bailout automakers. You make them change the way they do business, but you also remove some of their costs. You replace the union benefits with a lower cost system. But we know obama is more interested in union votes than doing anything which makes sense or cents.

Are you sure costs would be lower(taxes would be higher perhaps).

How much of the education is required to perform the tasks/to understand job training?

 

[loik]

Quote from dcraig:

Unless you go and live in cave somewhere, you are a member, like it or not.

But does that have to include Health Care and Education?

 

[loik]

Quote from nitro:

Well said, but imo you do not go far enough. Imagine there were no roads, no bridges, no electricity. These are the raw materials to a business today. Why isn't an educated work force seen as part of those raw materials? How can a US laborer justify four++ years of University, coming out with $80,000 in debt, compared to someone that got a degree from the India Institute of Technology or the Chinese Institute of Technology, and owes nothing? The business solution is to seek H1B employees. And since businesses are becoming multi-national now, it doesn't matter, corporations will sell their products to them instead of the broke American worker - a dire situation for American workers.

As far as health care, let me give different analogy. If my business makes heavy use of a truck, and that truck requires routine maintenance, and every time it breaks down it could potentially wipe out a large portion of my profits, I am in a precarious business to say the least. Of course, trucks are replaceable pretty easily. Why isn't the health of the work force seen the same way? The answer is, with one billion Indians and one and a half billion Chinese, replacement is easy enough with human capital as well.

US Corporations complain of an uneducated work force. Sheesh, if it weren't for government sanctioned education in the rest of the world, I suspect the situation would be the same the world over. It is a vicious circle in the US...

Why can`t roads, bridges, electricity be provided by private corporations etc?

I live in Norway, education here is not free, students have to take up loans from the "LÃ¥nekasse" to support themselves, so they have debts at the end of their education.

Why can`t you just come to an agreement with your employee, health plan/no healthplan etc, why does the goverment have to be involved?

Employers in Norway must educate their workforce to(translated using google):
"Around the yard at Volvo Truck Center is a series of PCs with keyboards that bear the stamp of that they are widely used by oljesmurte fingers. It also hangs posters that emphasize the importance of filling out forms.

Today, controlled much of the process around the car repairs of computers, and customers makes increasing demands for reporting. This means that today's bilmekanikere also must have basic skills in computer, arithmetic, reading and writing - in addition to switch engines.

Volvo Truck Center find that more people are struggling with this.

Struggling.
-All is not quite the height of your digital life. We had such protests when we wanted to introduce electronic paycheck. But more and more internal information is now via e-mail and intranet. We also look at reporting and receipt of order / invoice that some are struggling to write and read, "says Svein Sletten, head of human resources (HR).

He has recently sent a large share of bilmekanikerne on 50-hour computer course - which has been able in the wake of the government's program for basic competence in the workplace.

Total to 75 of the 300 employees at Volvo Truck Center go either on computer courses or courses in reading / writing.

Bilmekanikerne Ronny Haraldsen, Kristian Magnussen and Ole Ragnar Larsen have all recently completed computer course. In etterrkant they feel safer on the PC.

"I've always been interested in computers, and this was very useful. We learned about tools I never knew about in advance, "said Larsen, who has been a car mechanic for 40 years.

In these years there has almost been a revolution in the profession. He has seen computer technology sneak into the growing number of areas, whether it's troubleshooting, programming of vehicles on the cars, remote control and reporting.

Got new jobs.
-We learned to be more efficient in the use of Windows and the various Office tools. Besides, the course for free, says Magnussen

For him and colleague Haraldsen, they have newly acquired computer skills meant that they have been given new administrative positions.

"It is nice to have the opportunity to advance," says Haraldsen.

There was great interest in being on data rates, which are partly taken during working hours and partly in the employees' free time.

These days will also be dozens of Volvo mechanics start at a reading and writing, but the interest in this is not as great. None of the three Aftenposten spoke with feel the need to improve reading and writing skills, but they believe some of his colleagues could benefit from such a course.

Magnussen received many written reports from the mechanics.

-Most read fine, but someone should NOK taken a little more time when they write. It is sometimes difficult to decipher what they have written. I can only hope that those who need it say yes to the course, "he says.

It is also hoped HR manager Sletten, who estimates that at least 10 percent of the employees do not have good NOK basic skills in reading and writing.

-It is difficult to talk about for many. But I feel the data rates have helped to make it harmless, in the wake of several now said they want to go on reading / writing course. I had one visit who said that there was a reason why he was car mechanic. He fell early in the reading and writing at school, but was good with his hands. But now he wants to do something about it. It is good both for the individual and for us as an employer - a win-win situation, "says Sletten. "

 

[nitro]

Quote from loik:
Why can`t roads, bridges, electricity be provided by private corporations etc?

Is that what happens in Norway? I am not talking about electric utilities btw, I am talking about the electric grid.

I live in Norway, education here is not free, students have to take up loans from the "LÃ¥nekasse" to support themselves, so they have debts at the end of their education.

...

How many Indians and Chinese and Mexicans and the whole pot of the world do you see competing for your job in Norway, and does your government sanction such competitition? How many jobs are outsourced from Norway to the rest of the world?

What is your debt (translate into dollars please so I don't have to look at the currency exchange), and what is a typical white collar job pay there? What percent of your wage goes to rent, food, health care, taxes, etc? In other words, how cheap or expensive is it to pay back that loan once you pay "the right to exist" bills? Is employment guaranteed by corporations or as a last resort, the government, once you graduate?