Is day trading worth it?

[i am nobody]

The lower the timeframe the less likely it is for there to be any meaningful movement, thus the more likely that the move is just noise.

Even in intraday there are a few big moves every day. Each of this moves has a direction and noise. To me noise is every move different from the direction between the start and the end of a move.

10 tick moves are irrelevant and bad examples. Because if you look at that level noise does not exist if you only watch 2 ticks. From tick 1 to tick 2 is a clear move without any noise. Depending of the example one can proof anything.

 

[i am nobody]

ZIg Zag is not noise. Im referring to chop, if you are trading a 3 min timeframe and all you have is chop increasing the timeframe can help you understand why price is acting that way as well as isolate the range in an efficient manner. This simple technique works in any timeframe, when answers cannot be found, no matter how far out you look, you simply stay out, as flat is indeed a position.

What you are writing now is different from what you wrote before:See you do agree, the higher the TF, the more you get rid of the noise.
Or at least I did not understand it like you say it now. It is correct that if there is noise, going to a higher timeframe can help you to reduce the noise from the lower timeframe. But from what you wrote before I understood that in higher timeframes noise is smaller, which is no true to me. Noise can only become smaller in 1 timeframe if you combine it with information from a higher timeframe.

 

[i am nobody]

i always loved hearing the term 'noise' in the market. nothing is noise. everything has meaning.

Noise has the meaning to confuse people and trying to get them in the wrong direction. So noise exist and noise has a meaning.

 

[dbphoenix]

Noise has the meaning to confuse people and trying to get them in the wrong direction. So noise exist and noise has a meaning.

Again, there is no such thing as "noise"; there is only what is not relevant to one's trading plan. Many/most/all of those who trade daily bars/charts consider hourly bars to be "noise", much less anything shorter. But the intraday trader considers the 5m, 15m, etc. to be pretty important. The 1m trader and the scalper consider price movement of any kind to be important in that all trades provide information. And anything that provides information is not "noise".

 

[i am nobody]

Again, there is no such thing as "noise"; there is only what is not relevant to one's trading plan. Many/most/all of those who trade daily bars/charts consider hourly bars to be "noise", much less anything shorter. But the intraday trader considers the 5m, 15m, etc. to be pretty important. The 1m trader and the scalper consider price movement of any kind to be important in that all trades provide information. And anything that provides information is not "noise".

Does noise not depend of a personal interpretation and situation?
If I have a trading plan, everything that tries to confuse me is noise to me. Noise comes from annoying, it means something that wants to disturb you in what you try to do.
Theoretically every tick has a meaning and noise does not exist. But I see it from the position where i am in. But I should use the word irrelevant then from now on?

 

[dbphoenix]

Does noise not depend of a personal interpretation and situation?

If I have a trading plan, everything that tries to confuse me is noise to me. Noise comes from annoying, it means something that wants to disturb you in what you try to do.

Theoretically every tick has a meaning and noise does not exist. But I see it from the position where i am in. But I should use the word irrelevant then from now on?

In the outside world, noise is any unwanted sound and can be/should be ignored. In trading, every transaction provides information, and to ignore any of it can be damaging, if not disastrous. I may not trade the ladder, I may not scalp, but I am continuously aware of what they are doing because in the aggregate their behavior tells me something about the future direction and possibly immediate direction of price.

This is, of course, of more importance in a discretionary system than in a mechanical one. But there's all sorts of "mechanical". A mechanical bull can throw one off just as well as a real one.

 

[lucysparabola]

Yeah I can get on board with 'i am nobody's' interpretation of noise.

 

[trickshot]

Even in intraday there are a few big moves every day. Each of this moves has a direction and noise. To me noise is every move different from the direction between the start and the end of a move.

No there definitely aren't a few big moves everyday, there will be dull days when price just doesnt go anywhere, this is true even for a volatile product like the CL. In fact dull days are more like the rule and not the exception these days since volatility has crashed.

10 tick moves are irrelevant and bad examples.

Why are 10 tick moves irrelevant? You do know that a popular product like the ES tends to chop around a 10 - 20 tick range for hours on end these days yea?

Because if you look at that level noise does not exist if you only watch 2 ticks. From tick 1 to tick 2 is a clear move without any noise. Depending of the example one can proof anything.

Now this is a bad example because its irrelevant. So what if a move from tick 1 to tick 2 is a move to you? Are you able to profit from such a small move, if you can even call it that?

You can define moves however you like, but in the real world, retail traders who aim to be profitable in the long run would never go for such small moves, thats HFT and market maker territory, you will be destroyed if you try to steal their cheese.

 

[i am nobody]

No there definitely aren't a few big moves everyday, there will be dull days when price just doesnt go anywhere, this is true even for a volatile product like the CL. In fact dull days are more like the rule and not the exception these days since volatility has crashed.

I add the ES because I daytrade ES. These are the real statistics for April. First every big move and the potential in each move, and in the next column the total potential of the day. As you can see there are every day a few big moves (bigger than 20 ticks). I don't call this dull days. If this are dull days, how much should the market move then? More than 25 points in each move? If you cannot make money in this market you have a big problem. Then the problem is not the market but YOU.

Why are 10 tick moves irrelevant? You
do know that a popular product like the ES tends to chop around a 10 - 20 tick range for hours on end these days yea?

The figures above confirm that there are many bigger moves than 10-20 ticks. Try to catch them is another problem, but that's the job for the trader. If he cannot catch anything he has to be blamed, not the "dull" market. 10 ticks is almost in every move just a small piece, that's why it is irrelevant. The real moves are relevant and much bigger.

Now this is a bad example because its irrelevant. So what if a move from tick 1 to tick 2 is a move to you? Are you able to profit from such a small move, if you can even call it that?

You can define moves however you like, but in the real world, retail traders who aim to be profitable in the long run would never go for such small moves, thats HFT and market maker territory, you will be destroyed if you try to steal their cheese.

My average profit per trade is more than 20 ticks which proofs that I don't go for small moves. I try to take the moves I showed above.

 

[Laissez Faire]

No there definitely aren't a few big moves everyday, there will be dull days when price just doesnt go anywhere, this is true even for a volatile product like the CL. In fact dull days are more like the rule and not the exception these days since volatility has crashed.

I see that the poster disagrees with you on this. I'm not in the market at the moment and currently not up to date, but I can say for sure that what you're saying was the norm when I was trading. ES would often have days where it went nowhere. After big moves and volatility, some consolidation is normal and to be expected.

I think it's very important to learn how to spot these type of days and potentially stay out or at least minimize trading frequency on those days. I know that I would lose profits from other days on such days because I tried to force trades that wasn't there.