Iraqi Freedom
- Thread starter dotslashfuture
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Quote from iceman1:
YOU brother Trader556..... have made my weekend! (some of which is going to be spent at a protest at the Federal Plaza in Chicago). Finally someone besides the few other enlightened posters here, who GETS IT! Bravo.
I cannot believe we're hearing the same stuff as during the Nam era! Only at least then the younger generation had a conscience and did more than watch Blind Date, Survivor or The Bachelor on TV.
We STOOD FOR SOMETHING!
Optional777... with all due respect to a fellow countryman.. what do you (and the other macho men on chit chat applauding this aggression) stand for? What PRINCIPLE do you support!
You HAVE HEARD of principle haven't you? It's the very thing that the USA was built on.... that made it great... and which the US is NOW working on forfeiting, in the name of MONEY and POWER!
It's not too late though... you can still speak out. And by so doing at least it will be known to the World that this great Country has not sold it's soul for pieces of gold; that there ARE fellow Americans who see right from wrong... and yet still love their country and would lay down their life for it's survival at the right time and place, if ever necessary.
Maybe love it even more... than the war mongers amongst us!.
Ice
Innocent until proven guilty is a principle I apply to American citizens and our government leaders.
Supporting this war on principle once it began is another.
I was against the war before I saw that it could not be stopped, and I saw the stubborness and unholy alliance of Germany, France, USSR, and China. Now I favor a quick sucessful American victory.
Having said what you just did... has elevated you in the eyes of truth to a much higher level of human awareness... don't know why you changed your view though. This is wrong. I HATE sadaam hussein and all terrorists; they are a scourge upon the earth. But sad as it may sound, you don't lower yourself to that level to right the wrong.
A person (and a Nation) must live with some moral compass, or you fall into the abyss:
"Hey Bud..... a man looks into the abyss and see's nothing staring back at him... it's at that time.... that the man finds his true character"... Wall Street.
America looked into the abyss on and after 9/11. At first it empowered the nation; brought people together in appreciating the values that made us strong and separated us from the murderers, low lifes and parasite terrorists. We got stronger as a people. And then we go and throw it all away for the selfish interests of one family (Bush) and apparently, perceived economic advantage.
Now, the truth about nuclear weapons and other 'wmd' will come out. Hopefully we will find them, and at least partially justify
this insanity.
There's a song lyric from a group called Enigma. It goes something like this:
If you understand, or if you don't...
If you believe or if you doubt
there's a Universal JUSTICE... and the EYES OF TRUTH...
are always watching YOU
Those who believe those words... will understand why some of us oppose this attack on Iraq, while still hating the ruthless regime in power over there.
Iceman
Quote from iceman1:
Having said what you just did... has elevated you in the eyes of truth to a much higher level of human awareness... don't know why you changed your view though. This is wrong. I HATE sadaam hussein and all terrorists; they are a scourge upon the earth. But sad as it may sound, you don't lower yourself to that level to right the wrong.
A person (and a Nation) must live with some moral compass, or you fall into the abyss:
"Hey Bud..... a man looks into the abyss and see's nothing staring back at him... it's at that time.... that the man finds his true character"... Wall Street.
America looked into the abyss on and after 9/11. At first it empowered the nation; brought people together in appreciating the values that made us strong and separated us from the murderers, low life and "parasite terrorists". We got stronger as a people. And then we go and throw it all away for the selfish interests of one family (Bush) and apparently, perceived economic advantage.
Now, the truth about nuclear weapons and other 'wmd' will now come out. Hopefully we will find them, and at least partially justify
this insanity.
There's a song lyric from a group called Enigma. It goes something like this:
If you understand, or if you don't...
If you believe or if you doubt
there's a Universal JUSTICE... and the EYES OF TRUTH...
are always watching YOU
Those who believe those words... will understand why some of us oppose this attack on Iraq, while still hating the ruthless regime in power over there.
Iceman
Here is/was my reasoning process.
On one side I saw the extremist liberals full of hate and venom, I ignore them.
On the other side I saw the extremist conservatives full of hate and venom, I ignore them.
Then I looked at the countries of USA, GB and Spain, their history of human rights and democracy since WWII.
Then I looked at the countries of France, Germany, USSR, and China and their history of human rights and democracy since WWII.
I looked at congress and saw they gave power to the acting president. I saw no unified democrat group of senators and congressmen standing together in defiance of the war. I saw unification of the current administration, when Colin Powell came on board 100% (he had been the lone major objector to war) and now that war is declared I see no major democrat opposition as a group.
I see no attempt at a resolution in the UN for sanctions against the USA. No resolution in any NATO country that denounces the actions against the USA and is beginning sanctions against the USA.
I do see a coalition effort fighting this war. I see America trying to spare lives, I see Saddam and company continuing their methods of brutality.
In the absence of first hand information, which none of us is privy to, I made a decision to throw my support for a successful US and coalition campaign. In a representative democracy, which the USA is, we have to trust by design, and if that trust is broken, we vote them out in the next election.
I could be wrong, time will tell, but that is what I saw that helped me reach my conclusion, and maintain it.
People talk about legitimacy, and for some people that means morality, and for some people that means laws and treaties. I have no doubt that Bush truly believes that this war is a moral act, and pro-war people agree with him.
I opened my eyes to reality in my early twenties and began to accept the world as it really is, and not the way some proffessor says it should be. In the real world dictators are not good shepherds caring for the masses, they are simply tyrants. In the real world war or revolution is necessary to get rid of dictators. No dictator has ever left power because of purely external political pressure, if that were the case there wouldn't be any more dictators. It always takes a coup, or a revolution, or an invasion. Sad but true. People who ignore this are choosing ignorance.
After the war is over the world press will be all over Iraq interviewing the people who will speak freely, and then we will see what legitimacy means. It doesn't mean a U.N. mandate. Legitimacy does not flow from the U.N., it flows from the inalienable right of human beings to be free.
I opened my eyes to reality in my early twenties and began to accept the world as it really is, and not the way some proffessor says it should be. In the real world dictators are not good shepherds caring for the masses, they are simply tyrants. In the real world war or revolution is necessary to get rid of dictators. No dictator has ever left power because of purely external political pressure, if that were the case there wouldn't be any more dictators. It always takes a coup, or a revolution, or an invasion. Sad but true. People who ignore this are choosing ignorance.
After the war is over the world press will be all over Iraq interviewing the people who will speak freely, and then we will see what legitimacy means. It doesn't mean a U.N. mandate. Legitimacy does not flow from the U.N., it flows from the inalienable right of human beings to be free.
Read over what you said three times... do you even see what the flaw is in your statement about this attack by the US! It is for the IRAQI people to rise up and overthrow sadaam hussein. NOT the USA or England. But more importantly you are demonstrating that the American propaganda machine has worked it's magic on you not unlike during the Vietnam era.... like a cult leader indoctrinating his "flock".
We bro, are over there because of the threat to world peace from WMD and nukes. Not to free the Iraqi people. Did you conveniently forget that after watching too much CNN on the tube?! Duh?
Who gives us the power or moral right to invade another country without being asked to "free them"...... and then do so by bombing their cities?! DO YOU NOT SEE THAT FLAW. Or does it not matter since it's not your country being bombed.
And what about when China attacks Taiwan now... or N. Korea attacks the South. WHO THE F*CK are we then to tell them to stop? Now..... after we relinquished most of our moral righteousness we heretofore claimed!
Think for yourself! We were told the invasion was due to alleged nukes, not freedom for an allegedly oppressed people . We don't live there. .. and any revolution is up to them.
We can help... but don't attack thereby setting a precedent that will live in infamy (despite how the media and politicians spin this one)!
Ice
Operation Paperclip casefile
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/nwonazi.html
Operation PAPERCLIPâ While other American agencies are hunting down Nazi war criminals for arrest, the U.S. intelligence community is smuggling them into America, unpunished, for their use against the Soviets. The most important of these is Reinhard Gehlen, Hitlerâs master spy who had built up an intelligence network in the Soviet Union. With full U.S. blessing, he creates the "Gehlen Organization," a band of refugee Nazi spies who reactivate their networks in Russia. These include SS intelligence officers Alfred Six and Emil Augsburg (who massacred Jews in the Holocaust), Klaus Barbie (the "Butcher of Lyon"), Otto von Bolschwing (the Holocaust mastermind who worked with Eichmann) and SS Colonel Otto Skorzeny (a personal friend of Hitlerâs). The Gehlen Organization supplies the U.S. with its only intelligence on the Soviet Union for the next ten years, serving as a bridge between the abolishment of the OSS and the creation of the CIA. However, much of the "intelligence" the former Nazis provide is bogus. Gehlen inflates Soviet military capabilities at a time when Russia is still rebuilding its devastated society, in order to inflate his own importance to the Americans (who might otherwise punish him). In 1948, Gehlen almost convinces the Americans that war is imminent, and the West should make a preemptive strike. In the 50s he produces a fictitious "missile gap." To make matters worse, the Russians have thoroughly penetrated the Gehlen Organization with double agents, undermining the very American security that Gehlen was supposed to protect.
A Timeline of CIA Atrocities
http://www.korpios.org/resurgent/CIAtimeline.html
you have intentionally dodged my whole point, as I assumed you would. None are so blind as those who will not see.