Intelligent Design is not creationism

Quote from armoured saint:

looking around you getting the intuitive feeling of a designer .. nothing wrong with that. we all got intuitive feelings. it's when you actually begin to believe your grand delusion(s) the problems begin :p

the "god delusion".. well you must allow lots of leeway on this one for being REAL WRONG..

that way you remain a rational being and keep your sanity :D
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Intuitive feeling? :D

What's humorous is that the many are the one designer, making each one technically 100% responsible for what is seen, felt and experienced. And yet, the whole thing is denied. My question is, if it's so magnificent, why is everyone denying any involvement? We'd be lucky if anyone took credit for making trees and shrubs!

Yet, what everyone is so eager to deny, many are willing to pin the responsibility on the Father. Ha! Others blame it on random change of 'nature'. Ha, ha.

So you see what's happening here? This is all about psychological denial and repression. Delusion maintains a sense of sanity so long as it is compared to others who are like-minded. From inside, it looks rational. But it's so frightening, to stray too far from the norm, that the truth seeker dare not go beyond the pale. You wouldn't want to be "REal WRong", would you?

It's like that movie, "The Village". In this parable, there is an attempt to make a haven apart from the real world, maintained by superstition generated from inside the enclave.

Jesus
 
Quote from I am...:

Intuitive feeling? :D

What's humorous is that the many are the one designer, making each one technically 100% responsible for what is seen, felt and experienced. And yet, the whole thing is denied. My question is, if it's so magnificent, why is everyone denying any involvement? We'd be lucky if anyone took credit for making trees and shrubs!

Yet, what everyone is so eager to deny, many are willing to pin the responsibility on the Father. Ha! Others blame it on random change of 'nature'. Ha, ha.

So you see what's happening here? This is all about psychological denial and repression. Delusion maintains a sense of sanity so long as it is compared to others who are like-minded. From inside, it looks rational. But it's so frightening, to stray too far from the norm, that the truth seeker dare not go beyond the pale. You wouldn't want to be "REal WRong", would you?

It's like that movie, "The Village". In this parable, there is an attempt to make a haven apart from the real world, maintained by superstition generated from inside the enclave.

Jesus
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my mind is open to new evidence either way (got any?) but not so open that it falls out.

at least the "random chance" people define the problem in the domain in which progress is possible, try to marshal proof toward A solution. and are willing to admit error, and edit accordingly.

one the other hand, the creationist is "right", sadly assumption becomes unerring fact. creationism is a prescription to STOP thinking any further, the truth is known all facts are in. sad

:(
 
Quote from FerdinandAlx:

What's the difference between cause and effect when there's no time?
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The cause is first, not in time, but in creation. Other than that, no difference whatsoever. The only distinction is that the cause created the effect, not the other way around. This world is actually an expression of a reversal of cause and effect. We end up with a situation in which the makers are unaware they are the makers. What they made appears to give birth to them. Seemingly unable to change what is, this sets up a situation where will is imprisoned. Salvation is all about reordering cause and effect. One way to do that is to learn that giving is the same as receiving. Time and space make it look like one is better than the other, making them not the same. In creation, the cause gives everything of itself to the effect, notwithholding anything that is real. If for example, the effect is "in" the cause, the cause is also "in" the effect. There is perfect equality. The cause-effect team creates constantly, creating only equals. Yet the cause-effect team is the cause of what it creates. Other than cause and effect, there is no heirarchy in heaven.

Jesus
 
Quote from I am...:

The cause is first, not in time, but in creation. Other than that, no difference whatsoever. The only distinction is that the cause created the effect, not the other way around. This world is actually an expression of a reversal of cause and effect. We end up with a situation in which the makers are unaware they are the makers. What they made appears to give birth to them. Seemingly unable to change what is, this sets up a situation where will is imprisoned. Salvation is all about reordering cause and effect. One way to do that is to learn that giving is the same as receiving. Time and space make it look like one is better than the other, making them not the same.

Jesus
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I find this really hard to understand.

You say there is is a certain order to cause and effect, or the Father and the Son for that matter, not according to time but according to creation. Doesn't this imply that there was a time(?) before creation, a pre-creation, where Father and Son did not co-exist?

Perhaps it could be said, that's what's going on right now?
 
Quote from armoured saint:

my mind is open to new evidence either way (got any?) but not so open that it falls out.
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This thread was headed in that direction, what with kjkent telling us that certain ideas don't exist unless he thinks them...er, something like that!
But then if you extend that logic to include dolpins and everything else...
I guess it got a little too close to the truth so people were pleading to shut it down already!:D

For evidence, quantum physicists are in a good position to vouch for the oneness of everything, as well as the illusive nature of duality waves.
The whole bit about needing a reciever. And yet, without a reciever, is there really an energy or sound wave?

Time buys time to think about a decision. That's all that heaven sees it is useful for.

Jesus
 
Quote from FerdinandAlx:

I find this really hard to understand.

You say there is is a certain order to cause and effect, or the Father and the Son for that matter, not according to time but according to creation. Doesn't this imply that there was a time(?) before creation, a pre-creation, where Father and Son did not co-exist?

Perhaps it could be said, that's what's going on right now?
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No, there was never any time before this experience. It's not part of reality/creation. It's also helpful to keep in mind that time did not interrupt eternity and the constant creation that is going on right now. Time was a single instant blown way out of proportion...one instant multiplied, each instant separate from another. Time 'masks' a single instant...so it is an illusion. True creation is about reality, not illusions.

As for how something can be "first" if there is no time, that is indeed hard to understand from within the realm of time and perception. That can really only be known. But to know anything, one must step out of time and perception. Some things are beyond the learning capability of this world. My job is simply to offer the correction of perception, aligning it so closely with truth and knowledge that it is just a short step over to the other side...if that is your decision. Prior to that decision, you will be treated to quick trips to heaven where you will "know" briefly what you knew before. Those are just foretastes, awaiting your final decision. I'll call those trips "revelation". Revelation calls for preparation, otherwise the experience might terrify you. And heaven will never do anything to terrorize, force, or attack. This world does that just fine all by itself.

Time is a separation mechanism. Space is the distance you want to be apart from everything else. Time is another kind of distance between you and everything else. The future is for avoiding what is now: the oneness of reality. Those who make heaven dependent on some future event are actually trying to avoid heaven. A future hell concept serves the same purpose.

Jesus
 
Quote from I am...:

No, there was never any time before this experience. It's not part of reality/creation. It's also helpful to keep in mind that time did not interupt eternity and the constant creation that is going on right now. Time was a single instant blown way out of proportion...one instant multiplied, each instant separate from another. Time 'masks' a single instant...so it is an illusion. True creation is about reality, not illusions.

As for how something can be "first" if there is no time, that is indeed hard to understand from within the realm of time and perception. That can really only be known. But to know anything, one must step out of time and perception. Some things are beyond the learning capability of this world. My job is simply to offer the correction of perception, aligning it so closely with truth and knowledge that it is just a short step over to the other side...if that is your decision. Prior to that decision, you will be treated to quick trips to heaven where you will "know" briefly what you knew before. Those are just foretastes, awaiting your final decision. I'll call those trips "revelation". Revelation calls for preparation, otherwise the experience might terrify you. And heaven will never do anything to terrorize, force, or attack. This world does that just fine all by itself.

Jesus
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Would you say that instead of "first" and "second" you might describe the relationship between cause and effect as active and passive? The creator being active and the created passive?

I reminded myself of the Gospel of Thomas saying 50 where there's talk of movement and repose:

Quote from the Gospel of Thomas

(50) Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where did you come from?', say to them, 'We came from the light, the place where the light came into being on its own accord and established itself and became manifest through their image.' If they say to you, 'Is it you?', say, 'We are its children, we are the elect of the living father.' If they ask you, 'What is the sign of your father in you?', say to them, 'It is movement and repose.'"
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Acronym wrote:
I'll vote again, that intelligent design IS creationism, due to overwhelming , near total, similiarities in conceptualisation, as argued by participants.
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Define creationism.
 
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