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Intelligent Design is not creationism
- Thread starter Teleologist
- Start date
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
More self absorption...
What you don't comprehend is therefore gibberish.
Classic...
Indian philosophy has only been around for at least 5,000 and it is gibberish to you, so that means it is gibberish.
Oh, so provincial...
As far as your claim that what nature of the ground state of the Universe is, the fields that the Universe exists on not being eternal within the lifespan of the Universe, it is a most illogical claim.
Either the foundation of the Universe is static, or it is dynamic, or both alternatively, but in any case it would be an eternal condition, not changing over time. Either an eternally static, or eternally dynamic state. Even if someone would say that the ground state of the Universe randomly alternates from a static to a dynamic condition, that condition of random alternation would again be an eternal situation. The element of eternal is there and is non changing.
Or are you suggesting that the Universe we see is not governed by the same properties, tendencies and laws of nature that it was governed by in the beginning?
Sometimes the scientist and science supporters can be so illogical in their quest to deny the obvious.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/15/science/15PHYS.html?ex=1171429200&en=b3545c3a8d72b42e&ei=5070
"Cosmic Laws Like Speed of Light Might Be Changing, a Study Finds"
Quote from jem:
the debate should be:
does the universe appear designed?
answer -- according to some (not all) scientists there is an appearance of design.
It appears designed to anyone who observes it. There is no debate there.
The question is, does the appearance of design imply existence of design.
Quote from stu:
It's +1 more/better/further/stronger.
God+1 = Gilbert.
So to deny Gilbert is to deny God. If you are fearful of Gilbert as you suggest, then it will be God who first generated the fear.
Then consider reducing God, as the math shows, Gilbert reduces proportionately. Wake up at the back there
No no no. Who's on first. What's on second. And stu is on third.
Now you've got it reversed, attempting to put Gilbert + 1 in God's place. If you do this you will lose. Do the math again:
God = Gilbert (true)
God = Gilbert + 1 (false)
Gilbert = Gilbert + 1 (false)
Gilbert + 1 = Gilbert (false)
Gilbert = Gilbert - 1 (false)
God +1 = Gilbert (false)
God = Gilbert - 1 (false)
Gilbert = God (true)
All I did was subtract "+ 1" (ie. I am my own maker, I am greater...etc. ) from both sides of a false equation, and applied basic algebra.
Now Gilbert is one brick short of a full load. That's scary. But that's ultimately false.
God remains unchanged.
Jesus
Quote from I am...:
No no no. Who's on first. What's on second. And stu is on third.
Now you've got it reversed, attempting to put Gilbert + 1 in God's place. If you do this you will lose. Do the math again:
God = Gilbert (true)
God = Gilbert + 1 (false)
Gilbert = Gilbert + 1 (false)
Gilbert + 1 = Gilbert (false)
Gilbert = Gilbert - 1 (false)
God +1 = Gilbert (false)
God = Gilbert - 1 (false)
Gilbert = God (true)
All I did was subtract "+ 1" (ie. I am my own maker, I am greater...etc. ) from both sides of a false equation, and applied basic algebra.
Now Gilbert is one brick short of a full load. That's scary. But that's ultimately false.
God remains unchanged.
Jesus
Amazing the pretender doesn't know that the algebra of finite numbers shouldn't apply to God.
Here is a question for you:
when does the equality
G+1=G
hold?
mmmhhh... deep sleep hey?... well, to each his own, i don't want to belittle your interpretation, nor your attempt at rendering it in words, its no easy task... just one thing, if you stand by your above description, your tao seems to be deeply rooted in hinduism, not buddhism... buddhism and "soul(s)" don't mix well at all as you may know http://www.enotalone.com/article/4090.html ... and "god(s)" have fundamentally different statuses to what they have in hinduism, jainism etc... also there are subtle but fundamental differences between Moksha and Buddhist NirvanaQuote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
Cause and effect happen within the field of the material Universe, which is eternally cycling from the process of creation, to maintenance, to dissolution .
Just as science assumes that the most basic fields of existence are eternal within the boundaries of the Universe, that means they don't change, they exist unending, they provide the foundation upon which change occurs.
They may have been a period where they did not "exist" in anything more than a virtual "sleep" state, but the continuity is just as real as the continuity of a human being who sleeps then awakes, sleeps then awakes.
While fully unconscious, the world disappears from the mind of man, time disappears from consciousness, and upon waking, the person picks up where they left off. A man in a coma could wake up after 20 years and have no more concept of passage of time as one who slept during the night and awoke in the morning.
So, it is logically possible for an eternal cyclical condition of waking of Universe, , activity of the Universe, then sleeping of Universe, and those within the boundaries of the Universe are fully subject to the laws of Karma, cause and effect...while the Universe itself is not subject to individual Karmas, as it is a whole. The Universe is lifeless, without soul, yet houses all the souls.
That is why the Buddhists believe in a Liberation. They believe that there is a state of being that is not cyclical, but eternal and never changing once achieved. The soul is liberated from the cycle of birth and death forever, upon full realization of the state which is beyond the cycle of birth and death.
What is that state? Nearly everyone experience it daily...when they sleep deeply.
The liberation is a permanent condition, like going to sleep forever, a complete loss of identity, dying for ever, fully liberated from cycle of birth and death, pain and pleasure, joy and suffering. All the duality is gone. Only Nirvana, Kaylava Moksh, impersonal form of God or whatever term people want to use, the situation remains.
However, there is also a liberated condition spoken of in Hinduism, which is the condition of retaining personal identity yet liberated from the cycle of birth and death, to be eternally with the Personal Form of God.
good effort nonetheless...
are you familiar with vibhajjavaada?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibhajjavada
You were butchering Buddhism. It was easier to treat it as gibberish. But since you wanted to expose how ignorant you are...Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
More self absorption...
What you don't comprehend is therefore gibberish.
Classic...
Indian philosophy has only been around for at least 5,000 and it is gibberish to you, so that means it is gibberish.
Oh, so provincial...
Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:
...That is why the Buddhists believe in a Liberation. They believe that there is a state of being that is not cyclical, but eternal and never changing once achieved. The soul is liberated from the cycle of birth and death forever, upon full realization of the state which is beyond the cycle of birth and death.
What is that state? Nearly everyone experience it daily...when they sleep deeply.
The liberation is a permanent condition, like going to sleep forever, a complete loss of identity, dying for ever, fully liberated from cycle of birth and death, pain and pleasure, joy and suffering. All the duality is gone. Only Nirvana, Kaylava Moksh, impersonal form of God or whatever term people want to use, the situation remains.
The "Liberation" is not one. There are at least three different types of "Liberation." First is the liberation of living beings. If you see someone preparing to slaughter a pig, you buy it and set it free. That will show your compassion and build your "karma."
The second is liberation of "souls." There are people who die unnatural deaths (victims of murders or accidents). They are not willing to leave this world and meet their rebirths. So they stick around as "souls" (like in the movie "ghost"). But they cause troubles for living people. So they need to be persuaded to leave. This task cannot be done by an average person. It's only accomplished by people with a lot of "karma." Usually a monk.
The third is to liberate oneself out of the birth and death cycle. Most people are not able to do this. It is believed only people with great virtues or have done great sacrifices can do this ("reaching the Western Pure Land"). Nirvana is believed to be outside of the realm of existence. Therefore it should be viewed as a goal for perpetual effort but could never be reached. Sort of like the infinity.
There may be inaccuracies in my description because I do not remember everything - Buddhism was a very boring class to learn. But this is enough to show how superficial z10's copying and pasting is.
BTW, one of the first teachings in Buddhism is "what is eternal is change." Buddhism doesn't believe that there is anything the never changes.
Only one liberation really matters, the final one. The others you mention are bondages.
"BTW, one of the first teachings in Buddhism is "what is eternal is change."
Please show me anywhere that the state of Nirvana changes...Nirvana is beyond the eternally changing nature of this world...that is the point...
The point of liberation is to be away from the eternal changing nature of this world, eternally away from the world of suffering and dualism.
Now, Hinduism has many different Mokshas, of which Nirvana is only one, and which is the lowest level of liberations available, as there is a complete loss of personal identity and in essence is a state of sleeping forever as there is no identify to experience anything at all. It is total loss of identity, like a drop of water falling into the ocean where the drop loses its identity as a drop upon merging with the ocean. Those who have achieved liberation live out their years with a mind impregnated with Absolute peacefulness, but upon leaving their body, their identity is gone forever.
Those who enjoy and are firmly attached to the cycle of birth and death, would of course find a path out of the cycle "boring."
Buddhism may have been boring to you but that doesn't mean it is boring to those who practice it.
You are the expert on Buddhism to know who is butchering what?
It is just amazing to me how atheists think they know about the truth of religions they don't even practice...
There is an old proverb in India:
"Knowledge in the books, stays in the books"
____________
Oh, and one last thing, I wonder if you even realize how illogical these two statements are when taken together:
1. You were butchering Buddhism.
2. But this is enough to show how superficial z10's copying and pasting is.
So I am copying and pasting butchered Buddhism?
Really too funny...
"BTW, one of the first teachings in Buddhism is "what is eternal is change."
Please show me anywhere that the state of Nirvana changes...Nirvana is beyond the eternally changing nature of this world...that is the point...
The point of liberation is to be away from the eternal changing nature of this world, eternally away from the world of suffering and dualism.
Now, Hinduism has many different Mokshas, of which Nirvana is only one, and which is the lowest level of liberations available, as there is a complete loss of personal identity and in essence is a state of sleeping forever as there is no identify to experience anything at all. It is total loss of identity, like a drop of water falling into the ocean where the drop loses its identity as a drop upon merging with the ocean. Those who have achieved liberation live out their years with a mind impregnated with Absolute peacefulness, but upon leaving their body, their identity is gone forever.
Those who enjoy and are firmly attached to the cycle of birth and death, would of course find a path out of the cycle "boring."
Buddhism may have been boring to you but that doesn't mean it is boring to those who practice it.
You are the expert on Buddhism to know who is butchering what?
It is just amazing to me how atheists think they know about the truth of religions they don't even practice...
There is an old proverb in India:
"Knowledge in the books, stays in the books"
____________
Oh, and one last thing, I wonder if you even realize how illogical these two statements are when taken together:
1. You were butchering Buddhism.
2. But this is enough to show how superficial z10's copying and pasting is.
So I am copying and pasting butchered Buddhism?
Really too funny...
Quote from james_bond_3rd:
You were butchering Buddhism. It was easier to treat it as gibberish. But since you wanted to expose how ignorant you are...
The "Liberation" is not one. There are at least three different types of "Liberation." First is the liberation of living beings. If you see someone preparing to slaughter a pig, you buy it and set it free. That will show your compassion and build your "karma."
The second is liberation of "souls." There are people who die unnatural deaths (victims of murders or accidents). They are not willing to leave this world and meet their rebirths. So they stick around as "souls" (like in the movie "ghost"). But they cause troubles for living people. So they need to be persuaded to leave. This task cannot be done by an average person. It's only accomplished by people with a lot of "karma." Usually a monk.
The third is to liberate oneself out of the birth and death cycle. Most people are not able to do this. It is believed only people with great virtues or have done great sacrifices can do this ("reaching the Western Pure Land"). Nirvana is believed to be outside of the realm of existence. Therefore it should be viewed as a goal for perpetual effort but could never be reached. Sort of like the infinity.
There may be inaccuracies in my description because I do not remember everything - Buddhism is a very boring class to learn. But this is enough to show how superficial z10's copying and pasting is.
BTW, one of the first teachings in Buddhism is "what is eternal is change." Buddhism doesn't believe that there is anything the never changes.
Quote from james_bond_3rd:
Here is a question for you:
when does the equality
G+1=G
hold?
When? In time only. This gives it time to cease holding belief. There is an attempt to prove it true...in time. And there is time to prove it untrue. This world is the experience of faith in that equation...the "evidence of things not seen", the "proof of things hoped for". Faith is not natural in the original equality. Like belief, it is used to hold this world together. And when it is withdrawn, the world will disappear. That is why when you turn faith back in the direction of reality, you can move a mountain. Time is not natural. It will end when the last Son of God withdraws his belief in a false equation.
Jesus