In order for the EU to survive, it has to implement Fiscal Transfers

[nitro]

This is what bothers Germany:

"...On the one hand, Greek citizens were living off the kindness of strangers, enjoying generous pensions, shorter work weeks, an earlier retirement age and avoiding taxes, while their European brothers and sisters paid the bill. But the demand for austerity measures severely weakened an already hobbled economy and, some would argue, pushed Greece to the brink of bankruptcy..."

However, this is what they don't understand:

"...French Economy Minister, Emmanuel Macron, likened the austerity measures being imposed on Greece to the Treaty of Versailles, which, in 1919, demanded that Germany pay extraordinary war reparations for the damage inflicted on Europe in World War I..."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102814806

Germany has to rebuild Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal into viable economies the way that we did them after WWII. There is no other way. Austerity is sound on paper, but it doesn't appear to work with real live human beings. These nations seem to be dealing with austerity, but for how long?

Greece gets little sympathy from poorer neighbors

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102797165

 

[i am nobody]

Social security in Europe is much better than in the US. But this comes at a price. In Europe you receive money if you have no job, this can be for a few years, but in Belgium you can receive money and NEVER in your entire life work . We have till a certain age free medical care and free school. In the US situation is totally different. So in Europe there is much more possibility to profit from the system and never contribute. A hard working country contributes a lot (taxes in Europe are much higher than in the US) and lazy countries don't contribute but take the money from taxpayers to live like God in France.

Maybe you understand know what the problem is, and also why some countries have huge problems with the attitude from Greece. Would you like to work day and night, pay over 50% of taxes while your neigbour is relaxing in his garden every day and living from social security for which he never paid, but for which you pay?

An educated worker receives net about 33% of the total amount of salary, social security and taxes. So 66% of what he earn goes to the government. I think most people who work have problems with this high level of taxation, especially if this money is given away to refugees, illegal immigrants and lazy people who never have the intention to work.

The only people who can escape are politicians. They have very high salaries, extensive amounts of free money for expenses, special very low level of taxation, or even no taxation at all, a lot of holidays, can go much earlier on pension (55 instead of 67), receive a pension that is at least 5 times bigger than the average pension ..... So creating jobs for friends who want to be politicians too is their main activity. This explains why the EU had to be created. Create jobs for more politicians. And of course taxes have to be raised to finance these operations.
The creation of EU has never been studied from an economical point of view.

 

[volpunter]

I think the truth lies in rhe fact that it was better to make even unproductive farmers your friend rather than letting them slip into Russian arms. Especially given the tumultuous past. (I lost count of the number of coups and revolutions).

That in a nutshell is, I believe why Greece has been accepted into the EU

Ok. Why admit them into the EU. Why not reject the application? if they haven't produced anything in 2000 years, certainly that was known around the time the EU was forming?

If the forming of the EU is essentially about the promotion of peace, why lend them money? Is the EU some sort of kumbaya? Wars are almost always fought over scarce resources.

"Man is essentially an economic animal" - Karl Marx

 

[volpunter]

Lol this is never gonna happen not because Germany does not want but because certain societies in southern europe are not willing too. Why I called Greeks savages? Because it is their life conviction to make a living off cheating and lying. Anything you try to buy or negotiate in Greece and you will most likely face deceitful adversaries. It pretty much comes down to that. So regardless of the past...Germans and most Northern Europeans are fed up and are willing to cut the cord and let Greece out.

By the way Greece was BANKRUPT before the term austerity was even introduced.

This is what bothers Germany:

"...On the one hand, Greek citizens were living off the kindness of strangers, enjoying generous pensions, shorter work weeks, an earlier retirement age and avoiding taxes, while their European brothers and sisters paid the bill. But the demand for austerity measures severely weakened an already hobbled economy and, some would argue, pushed Greece to the brink of bankruptcy..."

However, this is what they don't understand:

"...French Economy Minister, Emmanuel Macron, likened the austerity measures being imposed on Greece to the Treaty of Versailles, which, in 1919, demanded that Germany pay extraordinary war reparations for the damage inflicted on Europe in World War I..."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102814806

Germany has to rebuild Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal into viable economies the way that we did them after WWII. There is no other way. Austerity is sound on paper, but it doesn't appear to work with real live human beings. These nations seem to be dealing with austerity, but for how long?

Greece gets little sympathy from poorer neighbors

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102797165

 

[nitro]

I think the truth lies in rhe fact that it was better to make even unproductive farmers your friend rather than letting them slip into Russian arms. Especially given the tumultuous past. (I lost count of the number of coups and revolutions).

That in a nutshell is, I believe why Greece has been accepted into the EU

I don't know if I buy this argument. Cuba, that sits 90 miles from Key West, was handed over to Russia.

I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't ring true.

 

[nitro]

Social security in Europe is much better than in the US. But this comes at a price. In Europe you receive money if you have no job, this can be for a few years, but in Belgium you can receive money and NEVER in your entire life work . We have till a certain age free medical care and free school. In the US situation is totally different. So in Europe there is much more possibility to profit from the system and never contribute. A hard working country contributes a lot (taxes in Europe are much higher than in the US) and lazy countries don't contribute but take the money from taxpayers to live like God in France.

Maybe you understand know what the problem is, and also why some countries have huge problems with the attitude from Greece. Would you like to work day and night, pay over 50% of taxes while your neigbour is relaxing in his garden every day and living from social security for which he never paid, but for which you pay?

An educated worker receives net about 33% of the total amount of salary, social security and taxes. So 66% of what he earn goes to the government. I think most people who work have problems with this high level of taxation, especially if this money is given away to refugees, illegal immigrants and lazy people who never have the intention to work.

The only people who can escape are politicians. They have very high salaries, extensive amounts of free money for expenses, special very low level of taxation, or even no taxation at all, a lot of holidays, can go much earlier on pension (55 instead of 67), receive a pension that is at least 5 times bigger than the average pension ..... So creating jobs for friends who want to be politicians too is their main activity. This explains why the EU had to be created. Create jobs for more politicians. And of course taxes have to be raised to finance these operations.
The creation of EU has never been studied from an economical point of view.

I think everyone understands what the issues are, and that Greece leaching off its neighbors has come to an end. What I am saying is that you cannot give a man a fish. You have to help him learn to fish. So instead, what Germany should have done is to teach Greeks to build BMW competitors, etc. So they would send $20B at a time contractually to build some business.

So lend them money only to rebuild their economy to build and sell crap like the rest of the world does. The rich nations are the ones with the most crap to sell you! The problem is that the profit margin on Greek olives is not what the profit margin is on BMWs. Tourism is not bad, but not diversified enough. Once that economy is started, then a percentage of the profits go to them and another percent goes to paying off debt. So it is trying to build a Greek economy, not simply lending money that just goes into the pockets of people that don't give back anything to the economy.

So easy and obvious to state. Probably impossible to implement.

 

[volpunter]

Then what rings true? That Greece was the missing crown jewel to complete Europe?

Chuckle...

I don't know if I buy this argument. Cuba, that sits 90 miles from Key West, was handed over to Russia.

I understand what you are saying, but it doesn't ring true.

 

[volpunter]

Nitro, in what world are you and we living? Sure Germany could have done that but only in exchange for hard assets and land and property ownership. Since when does Northern Europe have a moral or economic obligation to treat Greece like a child and do everything? The Chinese went themselves and got educated in the US and Europe and returned home to conquer the world. Can we for once kick those fuxxing Marxist ideas into the balls and stop pretending Greeks actually want to learn to fish? Look at Africa right now. China is heavily investing but not free of charge to teach some to fish or build stuff. They do it for property and land rights and licenses. Greeks have to start offering something to get something. Thus is how this world works. Marx had his chance and utterly failed. We have to be fair and reasonable again and we have to stop believing the lies of bullies.

I think everyone understands what the issues are, and that Greece leaching off its neighbors has come to an end. What I am saying is that you cannot give a man a fish. You have to help him learn to fish. So instead, what Germany should have done is to teach Greeks to build BMW competitors, etc.

So lend them money only to rebuild their economy to build and sell crap like the rest of the world does. Once that economy is started, then a percentage of the profits go to them a percent goes to paying off debt. So it is trying to build a Greek economy, not simply lending money that just goes into the pockets of people that don't give back anything to the economy.

So easy and obvious to state. Probably impossible to implement.

 

[volpunter]

Impossible because Greeks don't want. Nitro I beg you, I plead with you, can we think this through for one momebt: manufacturing cars requires flexibility, shift work, holiday work , night work. It requires unions and worker representatives to not burn factories and kill executives but to work together with management to get things done. It requires a supply chain network that is efficient, infrastructure and people who do not arrive at work at 11am and take 3 hour lunch breaks between 2-5pm. It takes people with a can do attitude . Do you see any of thus in Greece? I don't. That is why tourism and olives are the only viable options.

And it is total bollocks to argue the EU can only work if every nation is about on an equal economic level. A country like Spain can take long lunch breaks , work less, enjoy more free time and retire earlier. But with this life choice they cannot buy BMWs, snort as much Coke as your average German or Brit and they cannot afford the same luxurious home as someone who works harder. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. That some think they can take it easy but still deserve a lot. It cannot work like that. But Europe can very well prosper with a Spain that sells farm goods and food or energy and a Germany that sells cars and both could have very different GDPs and yet happily coexist. There is not reason it cannot work if people buy what they can afford. And that simple truth does not want to go into Greeks brains

I think everyone understands what the issues are, and that Greece leaching off its neighbors has come to an end. What I am saying is that you cannot give a man a fish. You have to help him learn to fish. So instead, what Germany should have done is to teach Greeks to build BMW competitors, etc. So they would send $20B at a time contractually to build some business.

So lend them money only to rebuild their economy to build and sell crap like the rest of the world does. The rich nations are the ones with the most crap to sell you! The problem is that the profit margin on Greek olives is not what the profit margin is on BMWs. Once that economy is started, then a percentage of the profits go to them and another percent goes to paying off debt. So it is trying to build a Greek economy, not simply lending money that just goes into the pockets of people that don't give back anything to the economy.

So easy and obvious to state. Probably impossible to implement.

 

[i am nobody]

Impossible because Greeks don't want. Nitro I beg you, I plead with you, can we think this through for one momebt: manufacturing cars requires flexibility, shift work, holiday work , night work. It requires unions and worker representatives to not burn factories and kill executives but to work together with management to get things done. It requires a supply chain network that is efficient, infrastructure and people who do not arrive at work at 11am and take 3 hour lunch breaks between 2-5pm. It takes people with a can do attitude . Do you see any of thus in Greece? I don't. That is why tourism and olives are the only viable options.

And it is total bollocks to argue the EU can only work if every nation is about on an equal economic level. A country like Spain can take long lunch breaks , work less, enjoy more free time and retire earlier. But with this life choice they cannot buy BMWs, sniff as much Coke as your average German or Brit and they cannot afford the same luxurious home as someone who works harder. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. That some think they can take it easy but still deserve a lot. It cannot work like that. But Europe can very well prosper with a Spain that sells farm goods and food or energy and a Germany that sells cars and both could have very different GDPs and yet happily coexist. There is not reason it cannot work if people buy what they can afford. And that simple truth does not want to go into Greeks brains

Yes I agree. In 1991 when Russia fell apart and Baltic and East European countries got their freedom again they were poorer than Greece was. Now Poland, Czech republic and some Baltic states are doing well. Why? Because they wanted to work. I am sure that not a single American multinational is interested in opening production facilities in Greece. For obvious reasons. The Baltic and East European countries never received any financial support with the magnitude of what Greece already received. But they did well, Greece crashed and continues to crash. They don't want to work. It is not the duty of Germany to bring a better mentality to the Greeks. The Greek government should do that. But PASOK (socialists!) did just the opposite, more jobs in public sector, higher pensions, earlier pension, and lots of corruption. And if the circumstances are better their might be some companies who will be interested to invest there. But not in the actual situation. And an extreme left socialistic government is not quite ideal to attract foreign investors.