If anyone you care about has severe refractory depression problems, HERE IS THE CURE:

[darkhorse]

Hey Rearden,

Can passion create endorphins? I don't have any scientific or clinical evidence, but I would think it can.

Speaking from a little bit of experience... I'm not refractory, but I've known the crushing depths of despair. I have some inkling of what it's like to look into that void. My emotional range is extremely wide, well into the fat tail range -- probably in the top percentile for functioning individuals.

Comes from dad's side of the family. I don't consider myself a mental slouch, but I'm a dullard compared to my pops. And his dad -- my grandfather -- was more brilliant still.

As a successful father, husband and entrepreneur, my granddad had everything. But he committed suicide in his fifties. Put a bullet in his brain. Had all the trappings of a great life, but he couldn't see the meaning of life. With his genius and his range he possessed an amazing capacity for joy, probably greater than 99.5% of his peers, but the spark was lost to him. And so that capacity for joy became a yawning void that swallowed him.

I still think about granddad from time to time. My whole life is dedicated to the pursuit of deep passions and heart-felt ideals -- I'm not letting go of my spark for anything. If it ever slipped from my hands, I would probably be a dead man. If I had to define my life philosophy in terms of a few keywords, they would be: evolution, emergence, self-discovery, clarity, possibility, Arete. Especially Arete. When you have an all-consuming fire inside, you can do amazing things. But such a fire can also consume you.

I bring this up because maybe your curse is a gift as well. If you know what it's like to plumb the black depths as few do, you may also have a sense of the great heights as few do. Anger and despair can be forged into passion with enough will. Maybe you can tap into that passion, and thus create life-giving meaning for yourself. Fight fire with fire.

As an articulate, intelligent multi-millionaire, you have some pretty sweet options. If enjoying the hedonistic pleasures of life doesn't turn you on, then maybe you need a righteous quest. Maybe you need to find that deep well of passion that you can tap into for yourself.

It sounds like you've already got a message that gets your motor running. There has never been a better time to be a well-funded rebel with a cause. You can take your millions and start an organization, start multiple organizations, fund research projects, buy a thousand depression-related google keywords and spread the good word across the planet, throw yourself back into trading with the goal of making millions more to fund ongoing awareness and research.

This cause obviously drives you. Think about taking it up and making it your ultimate purpose. Fuck the naysayers and the navel gazers. Let your knowledge-spreading mission stoke that all-consuming fire, give you a reason to fight and a reason for being. You can contribute excellence to the world, and maybe find your saving grace at the same time.

 

[Pabst]

Darkhorse: I'd like to publicly give you props for being the most literate writer(AAA is close) on this board. i'm SO glad to see you posting again.

Ironically just a couple of weeks ago you wrote the following:

"Can desire for something frivolous, like a certain quantity of money, ever be powerful enough to fuel that kind of change motivation in the first place? Or must one go deeper?"

Most of us become disillusioned during the quest. We become cognizant money will not soothe the anxiety inherent in mortal being. You and I know that's a common reason for failing the task. Money, accomplishment, status, it doesn't truly matter. At least in the REALLY big picture.

Here though is a kid who made it because he was in a market/situation where he had to be talented but not overly reflective. Yet by nature he's introspective and as I know him personally, he's sincere.

Given your own propensities and acknowledgements, is it possible for RM to just go on happy as a lark because he's had success financially thats failed to rectify his TRUE angst.

I've been reluctant to post on this thread because as Reardon knows I suffer also from depression which I treat medically. I once remember hearing that telling someone who's chronically depressed to just put on a happy face is like telling a cripple tat walking is as easy as consecutive steps. This thread was about drugs. I say if they work, take em.

Quote from darkhorse:

Hey Rearden,

Can passion create endorphins? I don't have any scientific or clinical evidence, but I would think it can.

Speaking from a little bit of experience... I'm not refractory, but I've known the crushing depths of despair. I have some inkling of what it's like to look into that void. My emotional range is extremely wide, well into the fat tail range -- probably in the top percentile for functioning individuals.

Comes from dad's side of the family. I don't consider myself a mental slouch, but I'm a dullard compared to my pops. And his dad -- my grandfather -- was more brilliant still.

As a successful father, husband and entrepreneur, my granddad had everything. But he committed suicide in his fifties. Put a bullet in his brain. Had all the trappings of a great life, but he couldn't see the meaning of life. With his genius and his range he possessed an amazing capacity for joy, probably greater than 99.5% of his peers, but the spark was lost to him. And so that capacity for joy became a yawning void that swallowed him.

I still think about granddad from time to time. My whole life is dedicated to the pursuit of deep passions and heart-felt ideals -- I'm not letting go of my spark for anything. If it ever slipped from my hands, I would probably be a dead man. If I had to define my life philosophy in terms of a few keywords, they would be: evolution, emergence, self-discovery, clarity, possibility, Arete. Especially Arete. When you have an all-consuming fire inside, you can do amazing things. But such a fire can also consume you.

I bring this up because maybe your curse is a gift as well. If you know what it's like to plumb the black depths as few do, you may also have a sense of the great heights as few do. Anger and despair can be forged into passion with enough will. Maybe you can tap into that passion, and thus create life-giving meaning for yourself. Fight fire with fire.

As an articulate, intelligent multi-millionaire, you have some pretty sweet options. If enjoying the hedonistic pleasures of life doesn't turn you on, then maybe you need a righteous quest. Maybe you need to find that deep well of passion that you can tap into for yourself.

It sounds like you've already got a message that gets your motor running. There has never been a better time to be a well-funded rebel with a cause. You can take your millions and start an organization, start multiple organizations, fund research projects, buy a thousand depression-related google keywords and spread the good word across the planet, throw yourself back into trading with the goal of making millions more to fund ongoing awareness and research.

This cause obviously drives you. Think about taking it up and making it your ultimate purpose. Fuck the naysayers and the navel gazers. Let your knowledge-spreading mission stoke that all-consuming fire, give you a reason to fight and a reason for being. You can contribute excellence to the world, and maybe find your saving grace at the same time.

 

[darkhorse]

Quote from Pabst:


Given your own propensities and acknowledgements, is it possible for RM to just go on happy as a lark because he's had success financially thats failed to rectify his TRUE angst.

I've been reluctant to post on this thread because as Reardon knows I suffer also from depression which I treat medically. I once remember hearing that telling someone who's chronically depressed to just put on a happy face is like telling a cripple tat walking is as easy as consecutive steps. This thread was about drugs. I say if they work, take em.

Thanks Pabst.

I heartily agree with you. I've had family experience with depression medication, and I've seen firsthand evidence of the overwhelming need for meds in certain situations.

I wasn't suggesting that RM stop doing what works out of some idealistic notion of being drug free. And the road will certainly be rocky, no matter what path is chosen.

I was more trying to suggest that, in addition to the drugs, finding and cultivating a reason for being -- a deeper motivation -- could perhaps do additional good. Real passion can't be manufactured, but it can be cultivated. In his desire to share and spread the truth of what he's found, it seems like RM has a spark that could be developed into something more, to beneficial ends.

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Look this is really simple.

THE ADDICT has stated quite clearly that without drugs he will no longer live.

Why is that? Will cessation of the drugs suddenly cause the body to cease to function? Is the body dependent on the drugs to its very continuance, like a diabetic body depends on insulin?

Is there some medical reason why if drugs are not taken the THE ADDICT
will suddenly die?

If not, then this is not really a medical problem, but a psychological problem in which a medication is taken to block the psychological experiences that follow upon detox and sobriety.

Little children think they will die if their mother or father leaves.

Teenage girls think they will die from the pain of their first crush.

Women think they will die if their husband leaves them.

Addicts think they will die without their fix.

The feelings are very real for all of these people, but the feelings are also false.

Children do not die if their parents leave, teenage girls survive crushes, women survive abandonment, and addicts routinely survive life without their drug of choice.

THE ADDICT thinks he will die without his drug fix. This is nothing but an addict expressing their fear of their real feelings, so they have to medicate them.

If you can't see a pattern of unhealthy dependency, then you don't understand addiction and THE ADDICT, and are in fact enabling the problem by suggesting that sedation is the solution, rather than sobriety....

Quote from darkhorse:

Thanks Pabst.

I heartily agree with you. I've had family experience with depression medication, and I've seen firsthand evidence of the overwhelming need for meds in certain situations.

I wasn't suggesting that RM stop doing what works out of some idealistic notion of being drug free. And the road will certainly be rocky, no matter what path is chosen.

I was more trying to suggest that, in addition to the drugs, finding and cultivating a reason for being -- a deeper motivation -- could perhaps do additional good. Real passion can't be manufactured, but it can be cultivated. In his desire to share and spread the truth of what he's found, it seems like RM has a spark that could be developed into something more, to beneficial ends.

 

[Pabst]

Right you are, not just about RM, but all of our abilities to heal ourselves through out reach. Some of us just need find the key that enables us to unlock the door. Not just figuratively but often literally....LOL

Quote from darkhorse:

Thanks Pabst.

I heartily agree with you. I've had family experience with depression medication, and I've seen firsthand evidence of the overwhelming need for meds in certain situations.

I wasn't suggesting that RM stop doing what works out of some idealistic notion of being drug free. And the road will certainly be rocky, no matter what path is chosen.

I was more trying to suggest that, in addition to the drugs, finding and cultivating a reason for being -- a deeper motivation -- could perhaps do additional good. Real passion can't be manufactured, but it can be cultivated. In his desire to share and spread the truth of what he's found, it seems like RM has a spark that could be developed into something more, to beneficial ends.

 

[Pabst]

Why do you refuse to acknowledge some medications as insulin for the chronically depressed?

I'm not arguing. I realize you know much about faith based recovery and despite our IMMENSE disagreements I don't really think you're a dildo. Funny, smart, sports fan, narrow in that SoCal way, misguided politically, you got it all.

But, back on topic, what should suicidal people do?

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Look this is really simple.

THE ADDICT has stated quite clearly that without drugs he will no longer live.

Why is that? Will cessation of the drugs suddenly cause the body to cease to function? Is the body dependent on the drugs to its very continuance, like a diabetic body depends on insulin?

Is there some medical reason why if drugs are not taken the THE ADDICT
will suddenly die?

If not, then this is not really a medical problem, but a psychological problem in which a medication is taken to block the psychological experiences that follow upon detox and sobriety.

Little children think they will die if their mother or father leaves.

Teenage girls think they will die from the pain of their first crush.

Women think they will die if their husband leaves them.

Addicts think they will die without their fix.

The feelings are very real for all of these people, but the feelings are also false.

Children do not die if their parents leave, teenage girls survive crushes, women survive abandonment, and addicts routinely survive life without their drug of choice.

THE ADDICT thinks he will die without his drug fix. This is nothing but an addict expressing their fear of their real feelings, so they have to medicate them.

If you can't see a pattern of unhealthy dependency, then you don't understand addiction and THE ADDICT, and are in fact enabling the problem by suggesting that sedation is the solution, rather than sobriety....

 

[ZZZzzzzzzz]

Do you understand the difference between temporary use of medication to ease pain in order to help the body or mind heal and recover, and addiction to pain killers where recovery is not the goal at all?

Yes, many people are chronically depressed, but many of those same people refuse to do any real work on their psychological issues. They live in fear of the feelings that come, and that they will have to face those feelings alone.

Try to put your personal feelings and friendships aside, your own issues, and read this thread as an objective person, read it in a clinical sense.

As to your question, what should people who are suicidal do?

The first step is to admit they have a problem they can't handle on their own. Then seek help.

Unless a suicide is assisted, it is an act which comes when a person is hopeless and feels utterly alone.

There are so many people in the mental health field who truly care, so many others who have suffered who truly care, so many in 12 steps who truly care, so many in churches who truly care...

There is help available to those who are willing to seek it out.

I am not at all opposed to the use of pain killers or medical treatments, when the goal is recovery.

Quote from Pabst:

Why do you refuse to acknowledge some medications as insulin for the chronically depressed?

I'm not arguing. I realize you know much about faith based recovery and despite our IMMENSE disagreements I don't really think you're a dildo. Funny, smart, sports fan, narrow in that SoCal way, misguided politically, you got it all.

But, back on topic, what should suicidal people do?

 

[Pabst]

Your position is much clearer. And reasonable. Personally I do believe therapy can work. At least it can work longer than one's liver.

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

Do you understand the difference between temporary use of medication to ease pain in order to help the body or mind heal and recover, and addiction to pain killers where recovery is not the goal at all?

Yes, many people are chronically depressed, but many of those same people refuse to do any real work on their psychological issues. They live in fear of the feelings that come, and that they will have to face those feelings alone.

Try to put your personal feelings and friendships aside, your own issues, and read this thread as an objective person, read it in a clinical sense.

As to your question, what should people who are suicidal do?

The first step is to admit they have a problem they can't handle on their own. Then seek help.

Unless a suicide is assisted, it is an act which comes when a person is hopeless and feels utterly alone.

There are so many people in the mental health field who truly care, so many others who have suffered who truly care, so many in 12 steps who truly care, so many in churches who truly care...

There is help available to those who are willing to seek it out.

I am not at all opposed to the use of pain killers or medical treatments, when the goal is recovery.

 

[traderob]

Quote from ZZZzzzzzzz:

I Chapter 5

How it works:

Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

s.

Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?
and
Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation in AA, NA, or 12-Step Treatment
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884365124/104-2879063-2303932?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
""Further, not only is AA not successful to over 95% of those that try it, it's the LEAST successful program out there! And, to go even further, not only is it the least successful program out there, it's even DETRIMENTAL! Harvard University released a study that said 77-82% of those that quit successfully do it without AA. The 5% that AA is successful for are the 5% of those that remain members. Not necessarily SOBER members, just members. Relapses, according to the AA data, have nothing to do with counting the success rate.

THe problem is that AA and the twelve-step system have infiltrated our country. That sounds extreme, but it's true. Who comes to our kids' schools to talk about drug abuse? "Recovering" addicts. Who represents the treatment industry on TV and in the media? "Recovering" drug addicts. Who, reading these reviews, has not been consistently exposed to the phrases, "working the program", "It works if you work it", "let go and let God"? I have never had an addiction problem, but even I knew of these slogans. AA has been accepted as the answer to addiction. However, it's a cult. ""

 

[Arnie]

I agree. I think the AA type programs are nothing but self flagilation and going around wearing sack cloth in some sort of pennance......you are sinner!! REPENT!

I once read about a recovery program in England where paticipants were encouraged to modify their behaviour in a gradual way. Don't drink two days in a row, limit your drinking to 2 pints, etc.

Quote from roberk:

Alcoholics Anonymous: Cult or Cure?
and
Resisting 12-Step Coercion : How to Fight Forced Participation in AA, NA, or 12-Step Treatment
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1884365124/104-2879063-2303932?v=glance&n=283155&v=glance
""Further, not only is AA not successful to over 95% of those that try it, it's the LEAST successful program out there! And, to go even further, not only is it the lease successful program out there, it's even DETRIMENTAL! Harvard University released a study that said 77-82% of those that quit successfully do it without AA. The 5% that AA is successful for are the 5% of those that remain members. Not necessarily SOBER members, just members. Relapses, according to the AA data, have nothing to do with counting the success rate.

THe problem is that AA and the twelve-step system have infiltrated our country. That sounds extreme, but it's true. Who comes to our kids' schools to talk about drug abuse? "Recovering" addicts. Who represents the treatment industry on TV and in the media? "Recovering" drug addicts. Who, reading these reviews, has not been consistently exposed to the phrases, "working the program", "It works if you work it", "let go and let God"? I have never had an addiction problem, but even I knew of these slogans. AA has been accepted as the answer to addiction. However, it's a cult. ""