I feel the entry is also critical

Quote from Jayford:



Yep, some day traders do trade this way (not me), but the percentage net profit to commission is irrelevant if you come away with a good income every day. I used to work with a guy who made something like 100 trades per day, and made a grand or so net pretty much every day. I have no idea what his commissions were, but pretty damn high. So what. I wish I could take home a grand a day. BTW, I make, on average, a half dozen trades per day. That would put my total commission at less than 30 bucks per day, per contract. This is very minimal, and I am still a pure day trader. I don't scalp because I'm lousy at it.

Jay
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jay,

true. i've seen that as well! and that's a good living for them. and it's all good. but i don't see as many people doing that well - $1K/day for 250 trading days. but if people like to make their brokers rich or their prop owners rich then it's fine as well.

whatever floats your boat man...
 
Quote from Kermit:

The point of entry is very important for me because it is the location where I have defined where my edge is. If my entry is based on a breakout from a congested price formation, then at any moment PRIOR to that breakout entry of mine, I have NO EDGE and therefore I am not in the trade. The market can whip and chop all it wants if it feels like it and all I do is sit on the sidelines and watch. But once price breaks out and crosses my point of entry, I get in because now, unlike before, the probability of price moving in some meaningful way favorably becomes higher than before my entry; which is my edge.

This is not to say, by any means, that exits are secondary in importance in relation to entry. It is the full integration of all the elements that help propel your edge over the course of many individual trades. But having a good entry has definitely assisted me.

Kermit
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I particularly like bracket entries and using the open order as an inital stop.

My days are divieded into two parts: before and after first trade. LOL... This seems to be related to emotions.

As a person who can't loose (except time lost) entries and exits rank way below "hold" in importance. "Wait" and "hold" are about equal.
 
Quote from geringer:

I ran an experiment with a random entry system.

after reading Van Tharp's claim that you can build a successful
trading system using random entry, i thought i would try it.

here is what i did. figuring the movements of the ES intra-day
were a good match for a random entry system. I simulated
trading ther E-mini in MS excel using IB's real time data feed.
Only market orders and $4.80 in commission for each contract traded.

1. flip a coin. heads go long, tails go short.
2. wait until either stop loss or target was reached, then exit.
3. repeat

I reran it numerous times with various stop and target strategies.

Results were HORRIBLE. I tried numerous entry and exit strategies and only 1 in 20 runs were even profitable.

I am not claiming that this was a fully scientifically complete experiment. But that it was my personal experience and observation only.

Here are my conclusions:


1. overtrading kills you
2. market orders are like the "0" and "00" on the roulette wheel.
the odds are immediately against you. you need something to
compensate for this. either wait for the market to come to you with limit orders or a good entry signal that lets you break even
within the first few ticks.
3. random entry is a foolish idea. you have to wait for the right time and right direction to get in, other you are simply flushing money down the drain.


the day i did this was particularly choppy, so i captured a few more days and reran the test. it always lost money.

the one time it did make money, I used a really big stop loss. ($400 on one contract...to give it a lot of breathing room). but that system failed miserably the next three times i ran it.

any thoughts, ideas, or ways to improve the system?

thanks
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Re-label your coin.

You will still loose. Do you know why?
 
Quote from trader99:

one SHOULD NOT think differently when you are trading short term vs long term. You should have predefined entry, exits, trail stop, profit target,etc. Just a different time scale.
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I agree completely. And, yes, the question posed in the first post had to do with entries and exits. But, somehow, these threads always end up being about the superiority of swing trading over daytrading or vice-versa.

The number of people who are successful with one or the other doesn't really matter since success lies within the trader rather than within the method or the timeframe.

Therefore, perhaps the discussion could center around the importance of entries rather than what a waste of time daytrading is or how nobody can make any money at it.

--Db
 
Quote from dbphoenix:



I agree completely. And, yes, the question posed in the first post had to do with entries and exits. But, somehow, these threads always end up being about the superiority of swing trading over daytrading or vice-versa.

The number of people who are successful with one or the other doesn't really matter since success lies within the trader rather than within the method or the timeframe.

Therefore, perhaps the discussion could center around the importance of entries rather than what a waste of time daytrading is or how nobody can make any money at it.

--Db
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Yes! This is very frustrating. Don't bother what other people are doing!
 
Quote from 0008:

If after entering a trade, the price immediately moves in my favor, then my mind becomes much more relax. Now I have a winning trade in hand, I can decide when to exit. I am the master of that trade. :D I experienced a lot of trades that the price oscillated around my entry and I really didn't know what to do except watching the screen.
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Getting back to your original post, how are you defining "immediately"?

--Db
 
Quote from trader99:

Having done both position trading and daytrading, I think the key to this debate lies in your holding period or time horizon. The shorter your time horizon, the more important your entry is. For daytraders or scalpers I would say 90% (or more!) of their "edge" lies in the entry. For microscalpers, if they miss their entry by 30 seconds or less than then they will get worst fills and lose their edge.

For position traders, they will say "Hey, the trend is up. I'll go long. Set a stop loss at x%" So, the entry isn't as important. The gryations is just noise. And they sit back and wait to see what happens.

For scalpers or daytraders, they can still be wrong even if their entry is "correct", because entering a little too late can make you be caught in the temporary top/bottom. And then they get stopped out or just scratch the trade. So, the entry is of paramount importance because they need to see instant results.

I think BOTH entry and exit are important. But it becomes way more important the shorter your time horizon is.

just my .02 cent

trader99
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Yes, yes, yes! Thus, since Trend Fader doesn't daytrade, his experience leads him to believe entries are not important. Then a daytrader comes along and says, "Hey wait a minute!"

IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU TRADE.....PERIOD!!!

FRuiTY
 
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